Jason Timpf debates who should win the NBA MVP award: Giannis Antetokounmpo for the third time in his career or Nikola Jokic for the third straight season? Jason discusses each player’s impact on the Bucks and Nuggets and who he is favoring right now.
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#nba #mvp #giannis #nikolajokic #giannisantetokounmpo #milwaukeebucks #bucks #denvernuggets #nuggets #nbaplayoffs #playoffs #nbafinals #basketball #sports
37 Comments
Don't blame Jokic, blame your favorite player for not playing better
The main issue I have with the analytics being factored into the conversation is that only offensive analytics are used, which benefits Jokic. However according to the analytics Giannis is the best rim protector, and opponents shoot the lowest FG% against him as well. Basically he is the best defensive player in the NBA. Then you take into account offensively he faces more defensive pressure than Jokic, because Giannis is statistically the most double teamed player in the league(along with Luka). I don't even think stats should solely determine the MVP, but if there is such a huge statistical impact on MVP voting, the voters should at least be more intellectually honest about it, especially since the Bucks have a better winning percentage. The voting criteria is just biased in my opinion.
It can go either way. I have an excellent argument for both. While I do lean Jokic for a 3 peat I'd be more than fine if Giannis got his 3rd too. The best offensive player and team in the league vs the most versatile defender and dominant forward and defensive team in the league.
I still think Luka should get it, what he's doing is historic…
Hang on a sec…so we not gonna call Murray or Porter a star? Okay. Its Jokic by himself then. Okay cool.
Will Jokic be knocked out easily in the playoffs again? Yes.
When you have to bring a million analytics into if a player is better then he's not better. And for the jokic top offensive player and giannis top 5. What metrics are you using? Cause giannis averages 8 more points a game and is way more dominant in the way he scores possibly the best attacker of the basket ever but average everywhere else and jokic is good in all ways to score. Giannis is a top 3 scorer in the league the best defender in the league. One of the clutchest players in the league. And he's a great passer. Jokic is not even a top 5 scorer he averages 25. Has a glaring problem defensively and by that I don't mean blocks and steals I mean when he is going against other good big men or fast guards he's cooked. And is one of the greatest passing big men ever. Which to his credit is great. So it's obvious who you'd pick for the best player WITHOUT advanced analytics
The Volume realized Jason is clickbait lol
I also want to point out giannis got blasted for not winning a championship after his second jokic is lucky it only took him to his 3rd to start getting flack
Bucks are ranked 18th offensively, and it’s weird how Jokic gets ragged on for defense, and Giannis gets praised for defense and just cause he’s putting up points is getting a pass and actually being held in the same regard offensively as Jokic. If Giannis wins mvp he deserves it, but the lengths people go to bring Jokic down, while at the same time just saying X player can score so he’s almost as good at offense as Jokic and is a better defender is absurd. No one says Jrue Holiday gives you elite defense and 20 points and therefore is the better all around player than Steph Curry.
Giannis did more with less? Let's see… Jrue is an all star, Denver has only one all star, Brook Lopez is a fantastic paint protector, while Denver has no such player… So, in all, I am not that sure about that "done more with less" take.
This entire narrative could be avoided if Jokic hadn't won the MVP last season.
MVP does not mean "the best player". There are many better players than Joker. But he is the MVP.
About the on-off numbers, I think it should be noted what guys have looked like when Jokic is gone. Will Barton has looked awful this year. Jeff Green isn't even a rotation guy. Jokic has shown enough that his on-off numbers make sense.
They're slightly inflated by lack of a consistent stagger and weak bench, but he really does make Jeff Green look playable.
Bucks vs Nuggets for a championship would be great
Great conversation.
Tatum is coming for it all in this last push
Jason should do a game breakdown along with Draymond Green. That would be great honestly
Giannis
More rebounds
Almost 10 ppg more
More points in 4th q
More clutch
Way better defensive rate (giannis #1)
Better winning record
Played 90% of the games without Middleton
Averaging 24 ppg triple double while being ranked #29 on defensive rate ain't enough to put jokic above giannis this year
I'm black idc Jokic is Serbian. He's a beast it's not a race thing.
Same I picked him in 2019 to win MVP
Finally a real jokic fan.
Is this even a question? Giannis is better in every phase of the game, except passing.. On top of that, his team has a better record
Mvp voting needs to be taken out of the medias hands
All Jokic has done in his possible 3 straight MVP seasons? He’s averaged the following since 2020-21 in nearly 200 games:
26
12
9
2.1 spg+bpg
59/37/83 (67 TS% is insane)
Nearly +7 per game +/- (#1 and #1 this year by a landslide)
Number 1 ON COURT OFF COURT numbers easily (+13 on and -12 off is insane)!
Top5 in W% even though Murray been hurt a lot and zero other all star teammates!
Why does no one mention ANYTHING about how Jokic has literally had ZERO fellow All Star teammates this year and zero ever, but has had 4+ 48-58 win pace teams from 23/24 to 27/28 years old?!?! I worry about Murray knee soreness popping up again, but ppl ignore that no all Star context bc they don’t like him.
I still have Giannis #1 all around 2 way player, but Jokic has been incredible and his VALUE on/off impact and crazy numbers while winning at 52 win pace is God tier also.
Also quietly his DBPM is #1 and top 10 in offensive win shares.
Jokic has been MUCH better then Embiid in playoffs! Embiid’s efficiency and numbers per minute all go down in playoffs while (efficiency goes down nearly as much as Malone or Harden) while Jokic has historically great playoff numbers of
26
12
6-7
2spg+bpg
51/40/84!
Best player on WCF team (Embiid never made one).
Last two years lost to western conference winner and or title winner while missing Murray both times and Murray MPjr vs title winning Warriors who also beat Luka in 5.
Jokic just turned 28 a day or too ago. Murray was hurt when they lost to Suns in 2nd round and last year Murray and Porter Jr both out. Clown Jokic takes as dumb as ppl hating on LeBron or Giannis.
Very few players EVER have ever made finals without a fellow all star yet Jokic has number 1 most pressure to do it bc he’s been MVP of REGULAR SEASON 3x in a row (Bron wins 20-21 if healthy so it would be 2 in a row if better Bron health).
I have zero problem with either winning MVP, but ppl trying to discredit Jokic are as corny as ppl who tried to discredit/hate on Giannis LeBron.
The more the ginger talks about jokers true shooting, the more high pitched and whiny his voice gets.
Jokic bois in a nutshell.
Sure Bud, make him the first 3x MVP in a row since Larry Bird by a landslide.
Give him an honor Jordan nor Shaq nor Hakeem nor Lebron nor Steph nor Giannis have recieved
Break historical precedent for the RINGLESS white dude; it's what your ilk do.
Good on Jason for pointing out the on off stats flaw in Denver. I thought I was the only one who noticed this. Supposed Denver fans who watch them act like this doesn't happen
Jokic will never, ever, win a ring unless he steps up significantly on the defensive end. Denver will struggle to have enough good two-way players around him to make up for his glaring deficiencies on that end.
It's most of the voters and media that feel that "this is a done deal".
In my mind – It IS Jokic.
Because he's the MOST COMPLETE basketball player in NBA history.
Giannis is maybe (let's talk about it) a better defender, but Jokic himself is a GOOD defender. In fact – Jokic, if we look at the blocks+steals+deflections – Jokic is AHEAD of Giannis. Even if we look at just blocks+steals – Jokic is still ahead… Add deflections – and Giannis is trailing way behind.
So, this narrative about Giannis being a supernatural defender is kinda BS. A click-bait.
So, lets give Giannis defense (we really shouldn't – as we've shown above) – BUT Everything else – Jokic is a level above Giannis.
Jokic is a PG, a PF, a C, an outside shooter, a LEADER and anything/everything Nuggets need to WIN.
Jokic is just a more COMPLETE basketball player than Giannis. By a HUGE margin.
Hey, look at what the best player in the league can do with a healthy roster.
Joker's overall stats smoke Giannis.
your boy got dunked on tonight go talk about that
The Joker currently has 22 triple doubles this season, Luka is second with 10. Giannis has 4 and and Embiid has only 1. That is a pretty telling comparrison. Of course there are other things to look at, but that is an amazing stat…
So your just not gonna mention 22-0 in games this season when he gets a triple double. Y’all say the triple double is an overblown stat.
When he overblown the winning when he gets one.
Also the alltime record for most triple doubles in a row with a win I believe he passed the great Magic Johnson. Can’t remember where he is but I think it’s like 27 straight trip dubs with win.
Stfu ,Giannis plays in the weak AF East, If Denver was in the East they would be 72-10 every season…So stop it, EAST is so Weak there should be no Allstars from that weak ass conference…G league is more competitive than garbage East…
Hello everyone, please help spread awareness that it's YOH-kitch and not YO-kitch. You are doing a noble service for American society by making it a LITTLE bit less stupid. Thank you and God bless America.
I believe that Jokic's first MVP was given to him instead of Giannis because sports pundits had decided that they didn't want to give him 3 straight due to past precedent regarding who has previously won 3 straight and that the previous had all won a championship by then. It was a big topic of discussion that a third straight would elevate Giannis to the same stature as those past great champions, and most pundits weren't ready to acknowledge such at that time.
This time around I have heard FAR less discussion about past precedent and lack of playoffs success as being a limiting factor for Jokic winning a 3rd straight MVP. It's clear to me that many more media members are willing to move the goal posts for Jokic in ways that they were not willing to for other players.
So what is the difference between Jokic's greatness and the greatness of past champions? Besides the style of play which was gone over in detail (great points about flow of the offense scoring vs more self generated btw), the other difference is race.
I would estimate that at least 30% of the people in the US are white nationalists, and are always looking for the next Great White Hope in sports. In the same way that one of Steve Nash's MVPs should have gone to another player like Kobe or Shaq, I believe the themes of Jokic's ascension to 3 straight MVPs falls within a similar narrative to that of the Great White Hope.
Now of course this is 2023 and pundits can't just say that out loud, but I believe the moving of the goal posts regarding lack of playoffs success, when those narratives have previously been used to bar players such as Giannis, is the evidence of racial bias in favor of Jokic.
Now I didn't expect a discussion between two white men to broach this topic, but there seems to me to be tension surrounding Jokic's MVP campaign this year. A tension that goes beyond basketball analysts. It feels like I have been gaslighted by other sports media when pundits move the goal posts, and refuse to acknowledge that they ever used lack of playoff succes as a limiting factor in determining the MVP.
Carson used the word fraud to describe how some would think of Jokic should he win the MVP and the Nuggets fail to win a championship. Let me be clear, Jokic is not the fraud, he is a great player. Where the word fraud comes into play is about the MVP selection process, and the narratives spun to justify the personal bias of MVP voters.
Jason mentioned how MVP voters have an ego regarding their status as MVP voters, and create narratives to support their early season picks. They are also voters for life. These factors lead the MVP voters to be unaccountable, at least I haven't heard of any process meant to keep voters accountable. Also I am not sure that a lopsided poll favoring Jokic is any sort of proof. This has the potential to devalue this year's MVP race.
At least in the eyes of the players it seems clear given that Jokic was picked 2nd to last in the All star game. I think he would have been last, except he walked onto team LeRron out of turn. Jokic even said he thought he was the last picked. This individual season is Jokic's best case to win an MVP that he has ever had, but when you factor past precedent regarding how the MVP race has been discussed, this is actually his poorest case for a 3rd straight MVP.