Miami Heat: How would Rozier-Herro backcourt measure up? | Five on the Floor
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Hard couple scars WI bubble frog just like brother said you in trouble y check the FL plan got it all B y’all seen the block stop one hand and Pat trust have the guts we here to bring the heat y’all can hang it up welcome to five on the floor a daily Insider show on the Miami Heat and the NBA featuring Ethan scholet Greg sander and Alex Toledo plus others from the five reasons Sports Network hi welcome back to five on the floor here’s today’s floor plan SK you can follow me Ethan J skull at five Reza Sports we got Alex Leo you can follow him at Tropical blanket and like I mentioned check out off the floor we’ll be posting on there throughout the week all right we’re getting set for a likely NBA Finals between Dallas and Boston I’d like to know what the numbers were on that prior to the postseason starting or even prior to the regular season uh starting but we’re going to focus here on the heat and we’re going to Deep dive a little bit more on a back court and there was a picture that circulated of the two of them hanging out uh Terry Rosier and Tyler hero and does appear that there’s been a friendship that’s been developed there that’s good obviously you want chemistry between teammates we just don’t know if they’re going to be teammates we don’t know if they’re going to be teammates here going to be teammates somewhere else or if one of them is going to be gone and the other is here and which one that is going to be but what we wanted to look at today was can a back court like this work because it seems like first thing we didn’t see a huge sample size on it Alex is going to get to the stats and the second half of this episode but also it doesn’t seem to be the trend of the NBA to be going with smallish back cours and this is not like the even the 90s 80s 90s era of Joe dumor and Isaiah Thomas you know winning championships together but that was a physical small back court on a physical team that had a huge front line with Rick Mahorn and Bill lambir and and either Mark aguire or Adrien dley uh these days it seems like you’ve got at least one guy who’s a legit 65 and we can talk about Tyler’s height okay but a legit 65 uh stockier lengthier uh than than what the heat currently have and so I I wanted to go through some back cours here Alex on on who the general starters have been and kind of uh you know how the heat measure up so to speak so uh you know one back court is the Boston Celtics Drew holiday and Derek white um Derek white is is taller than Terry Rosier uh Drew and Tyler are about the same height but as far as wingspan right like that’s that’s where Boston has it or is it just over Tyler not over Terry well it’s wingspan and strength I think I think that’s and that’s going to be kind of the theme with some of these backourt pairings as we go through them is you know just to kind of go over that back court which may or may not start together next season we we don’t know how it’s going to play out and you know who they’re going to go with because you know like they finished the season off while while Tyler was out with Terry and Duncan two mixed results which we’ll get into like like you said in the second half but um Terry is 62 with a 68 wingspan right so he he’s small but he’s long he’s not very strong though and then Tyler 65 with a 6-3 wingspan so negative there and another guy who’s not very strong I think both guys are not like terrible Defenders but probably putting them together I don’t know if that is the best mix and then when you compare them to like you mentioned Boston you know Derek Wyatt and Drew are both about 64 with a 67 or six7 and a half wingspan from what we were looking up and they’re both stronger so that both of them are are you know as we’ve seen very strong defensive guards who can guard up who can guard down you know I think even if Drew is not necessarily in his absolute Peak anymore he’s still very good at what he does and having a dynamic defensive back court like that of course on top of the other Talent they have like it’s just insanely helpful and you know that like I hate giving him credit but you got to give Brad Stevens credit for doing a a great job complimenting his stars with pieces that make sense and are kind of you know again I hate to say it but they’re kind of right under Allstar level like Dre holiday Derek white porzingis all these guys are very good players and yeah I think they’re probably I mean they’re definitely the best defensive back court in the East and then you know you compare it to some other ones right like I think you look at the the Milwaukee one that one is probably more comparable comparable to yeah the Heat and it’s funny because Dame um actually has a very similar height and wingspan profile to Terry like it’s about 6’2 with a 67 so slightly shorter wingspan than Terry he’s at 68 so that’s funny that’s you know funny looking back on it now but you know Patrick Beverly was starting for them that’s another guy who has a similar uh kind of wingspan you know long wingspan and and similar height I think he’s a little bit stronger than Dame Terry and Tyler so but again that’s not really a great defensive back court even when they were starting Malik Beasley like he he’s got some you know some height compared to some of these guys that we mentioned like he’s about 6’4 65 with a 67 wingspan except he’s not a good Defender and not very strong so I I mean um those are the two you know kind of that you that you consider to be the top of the East and then I was looking at some other ones and it’s you know like the Knicks back court isn’t necessarily that huge right um but has been extremely successful because of their chemistry and the way that they you know kind of complement each other I mean Dante dienzo has has just had a career year uh playing for thees I think he’s going to get himself paid big time whenever he’s up whenever he’s due for that but you know he’s about I think um 64 with a 66 wingspan I would say not as strong as Drew but not too frail uh you know can play against size at times and and Brunson is not a good Defender um not very tall but you know they have a roster where they’ve kind of built around him to not have to you know they’re not putting him next to another small guy and I think that’s kind of the theme here is not having too many of those guys and I don’t know like what’s the Sixers starting back court they had Lowry starting at one point we know about him Maxi is another guy I think 62 with a 67 wingspan not very strong he was supposed to be a better Defender when he came out of Kentucky that hasn’t really been the case but the guy that we kind of forgot about um DeAnthony Melton he was their starter for a while before he got hurt this season um one of the kind of the best perimeter the point of attack Defenders I guess sub all-nba uh or excuse me all defense point of attack Defenders but and he’s about 62 with a 68 wingspan so we’re seeing a lot of similarities here and Melton is you know really strong at that position and I think having one is okay you can work around it if you build a proper team you know around them on defense but two is probably pushing it well and the other issue with it is that if you were to say okay who would you sub in as a starter for either of them you would say Duncan Robinson who gives you more height but isn’t doesn’t necessarily give you more length um and and physicality and so you you you kind of don’t have that option in the back court you they you saw them at a necessity use Caleb Martin in the backourt okay I know again our guy Sean Rochester is going to get on me about positions uh he’ll call this out but you did use Caleb who at least gave you a little bit more length and athleticism at the position but another one you know I looked at was Indiana a halberton and nard um you know who are and again they’ve used n Smith they’ve used nart uh you know but hurn is a legit 65 like that’s you know he’s a legit 65 he’s wiry um I wouldn’t I right so more of a wispan so so this is what I’m saying like these other guys tend to have uh it’s rare to have two you know on the short side here in the back court now Atlanta tried it what is De Jon’s wingspan’s uh gotta be right I mean he he plays like a forward in a lot of ways but obviously he’s playing with Trey or has been well before we get to that just really quick with the Indiana point you mentioned nice Smith he is 66 with a 610 wing span as I U look up dejonte over here really quickly but uh and and Andrew nard 64 with about a 66 wingspan I believe and Brunson 62 with a 64 wingspan like we’re seeing a lot of the same things here um as far as dejonte I he’s he stands at 6’4 I believe his his wingspan 610 yep it is yeah see I mean that’s yeah exactly that’s different I I I think what we’re getting at here um is that you can have a Rosier but then you better have a two guard next to him who has a significant wingspan right and plus strength and and that’s that’s where we’re at and that’s I I think that’s why even as I like sort of the offensive creativity potential of this back court everything else scares me and everything else scares me like the defensively and then there is also offensive fit learning how to play off of each other who’s going to handle who’s not going to handle I mean you mentioned the chemistry between Brunson and Devan chenzo part of that is they played together in college I mean that’s right so I mean and then you throw Josh Harden you’ve basically got three three fifths of the Villanova starting lineup in there and the other thing is D venzo kind of understands what he is and doesn’t seem to be want to be anything more right so right and Tyler himself as more more of a star scorer and I so I I don’t want this to become a pick on Tyler episode there are things he does very well but when we talk about fit we keep coming back to the same thing here they and on the other side of this episode we will get into the numbers I’ll let you handle that but we’ve talked about the problem of the two of them there’s already sort of a Tyler Jimmy how does that thing work and now you’re throwing Rosier into the mix and now it’s a Tyler Rosier how does that thing work and then you don’t really have a replacement two guard for Tyler that solves your problems in terms of phys physicality and length and so it does say okay this requires a roster adjustment like there there’s and I I’m still okay with the Rosier move even in that context because this is a quality player you added to your organization who I do believe and I think he would have been a factor for them to playoffs he’ve been healthy but I do believe if he got back to health you could probably coup the asset that you gave up for him so it’s not a disaster by any means but this is also not a perfect fit as much as I am not g to back off from it I supported the trade I like the trade I still would do the trade but it may now require another trade we didn’t even mentioned the Magic by the way who have like a bevy of six4 guards who are good Defenders like um you know Jaylen Suggs who was all defensive guy fultz is a good defensive player who who is about 6’4 with a long wingspan well look look look look at OKC with Dort and sja I mean the both of them uh have wingspans that that exceed and and giddy when he’s in there too I mean and and look Denver okay I mean kcp what is kyp’s wingspan I’m sure it’s it’s greater than Tyler’s right so you’re looking at kcp playing with Murray Murray Murray always surpris Murray’s the one guy like people think of Murray is a small guard I’m not really sure why like when you watch Murray play up close he’s not a small guard so they do not have a small back CT and then they then they throw in Porter and Gordon we talk about functional size and that kind of length guys with a giant who can do everything on the floor right like like okay again maybe you could survive with a small backourt like a Dumar Isaiah Thomas back court if they were Dumars and Isaiah Thomas okay Hall of Famers and you had you know you know mahard uh you know Dantley aguire and lambir up front uh and then right and then John Sally and Dennis Rodman by the way coming off the bench who were two of the longest front Court players of their time okay in terms of athleticism and getting Above the Rim and defending the heat don’t have any of that they’ve got Bam um and so it’s like you’re taking and I know a lot of people gonna be listening to this podcast and saying we’ve been saying this I I understand it like I’ve been a little late to the party here on on the whole this whole size issue okay uh but it you can’t ignore that the league has gone the other direction now you just can’t ignore because I I think part of where SPO was going with this whole thing and it started with pace and space and then putting fours you know smallish you know putting threes at the four spot all that he wanted versatility he wanted for switching he wanted flexibility uh you know and all of that but the problem is now now there are bigger players coming into the league who can do some of those things so now those guys are being drafted and they’re developing and the heat don’t have a counter to any of that and so that’s and they’re still playing the smaller guys and it’s another reason why again I think they’ll let Caleb Martin walk and you can make an argument that they shouldn’t overpay Haywood heith either because right because I mean he gives you some like but but again he’s starting from what is he 6566 right well yeah I mean I think both like heith has a really long expense somebody who doesn’t seem that tall but it feels like he plays taller because of his insane wingspan uh which I don’t have in front of me right now but you know you mention those guys and they’re going to factor into this conversation too because like you mentioned there the other like if one of them between Terry and Tyler is not starting right A lot of times like everybody wanted Duncan to start and he was starting there towards the end of the season and look I’m not gonna get into all the stats right now but since we mentioned that specific um combination like that four together that starting lineup that we saw towards the end of the season with hold it hold it hold it hold it I want you to we got a second half of the episode to get to hold it let me mention the two sponsors come back with wait wait before you get to that because I’m going to get into the stat what I want to say is like the numbers aren’t great right so if you’re not going to start dunan at the two and you’re you’re not starting one of Terry or Tyler and you want to have more functional size the other option kind of becomes well maybe you start a Caleb at the two which we talked about I think earlier in the season like as a possibility we never really got to see it you know not too much of it at least and you know you could even say that for Haywood who’s not a natural two by any he’s I think he’s more of a natural three that’s that’s what’s on the roster right now if you want to add more size to your like that the shots for all three of them are too inconsistent to do that I I I I don’t think you can do it I don’t think you can do it consist I mean we’ve seen flashes from all three of them if you want to throw hakz in the mix uh We’ve shown seen flashes of them being able to knock down those Corner threes but still nobody and and and even some of the wing threes but the problem is nobody’s fearing them yeah so so the the so it’s and and all of them go through these stretches particularly Caleb who it’s just like was on fire for three weeks coming out of the All-Star break and then but he had other stretches where it was like what is that what happened to his form um and Haywood also I mean Haywood had you know some four and five three games where they left him open and then he’d go uh two weeks without seem like he didn’t make one I I I his percentage ended up fine um but again there’s see I think people overrate the whole idea of three-point percentage it’s it’s you know for some guys you know I know you say everything comes out in the wash and regression or progression to the mean or whatever but some guys are feared and some guys aren’t it’s just that’s just the nature of it I mean Duncan could be shooting 32% three for half yeah exact well volume is part of it but also Duncan could be shooting 32% for three for the whole first half of the Season he’s still G to be guarded uh like a shooter in the second half of the year it’s just there is reputation plays into it form plays into it um and just the SP and that leads to the spacing and the spacing is just not going to be there with Caleb or Haywood playing you know in the back court I I thought what you were going to say and I do want to get to the sponsors here but I thought what you I forgot about d right right well Delon made some threes too and he gives you that length but again is he gonna at age 31 going on 32 is he suddenly become a feared three-point shooter he’s not he’s no he he’s capable of making threes and he he showed it in the postseason but he’s not that so it’s this balance of getting the length and the look it’s y three and okay is one of the most valuable positions in the league if you can find one you keep one they but again I’m going to I go out west like they just even if you look at the Clippers if you look they are they are small from a again a wingspan a length perspective they don’t have an option on the roster to fix it I that’s that’s where I’m at with it and that that’s what one of the things they need to address I thought the direction you were going to go was say if you’re gonna go with a small back court then you have to get size next to Bam um which they kind of have done with yic but again you know that’s a work in progress I think this is where some Heat fans would say okay well put a five next to Bam but then you just become slower and I so I played zero minutes together by the way Terry Tyler Nico Jimmy and Bam zero minutes according to PBP stats.net well that tells you everything all right well we’ll tell you more about some of the lineup data when we come back do want to mention a couple great sponsors of the five re of the sports network sign up for better Edge use the code 5 RSN this is legal Sports vetting I tell people all the time what’s the difference here from the other legal Sports play that you can bet in South Florida they take a vig that me means they’re taking a tax on your money okay better Edge doesn’t do that they’re allowing you to find the line you want for instance okay by the time you listen to this the game might be over but the Panther game tonight there’s one line up there but then you could go into the markets and find a whole bunch of other lines so if you just have confidence that the Panther’s going to win by two goals or one goal or three goals or 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NBA season is over you can still play if baseball’s your thing MMA boxing it’s all on there all right uh let’s do this let’s go to the lineup data here what what what did uh what did Rosier hero bam and Butler look like Rosier hero bam and Butler so in 118 minutes and that you know that’s I’m I’m going to try to like emphasize that in some of the stuff and um 118 minutes is not that much of a sample there’s some even smaller samples I’m going to site here and some you know bigger ones so not everything is on the same level just kind of a quick disclaimer here but those four together Rosier Tyler Jimmy and Bam negative 1.33 net so pretty below average with a 118 offensive rating which is pretty good but a 119 defensive rating which is not and um you know in those lineups did he shot 53% from two 43% from three an opponent shot about 59% from Two and 42% from three so that that’s that’s like just to kind of set the tone here right offense is pretty good right like you added scoring around Jimmy and Bam you added guys who can create and the it shows there like the heat had a decent offense the problem is the defense right and then when you break down some of the different combinations with certain guys on and certain guys off to me that’s where it gets really interesting so now I’m going to site the two smallest sample sizes here kind of grouping together well you you already you already mentioned yic is not in any of these right zero minutes no so I’ll I’m the only thing that I have here with yic is the kind of the stats with that end of season starting lineup which I hinted at earlier which was a negative 6.3 net rating in um 181 minutes so again not very much but that’s not good at all again but but no it’s not good but again zero minutes with the four we talked about Ro Rosier hero bam and Butler with those exact four zero minutes zero and that would presumably be the starting lineup next year yeah and it’s like everybody thought like you know including us that like Duncan as a starter was was going to work well with Terry and and everybody wanted Nico including us to start it’s like you know the the results were very bad now I’m not saying it can’t get better but you know that’s a lineup that you think would be able to score pretty well and their offensive rating was just under 112 which is not awesome or anything and it had a 118 defensive rating so that starting lineup with Terry Duncan and Nico um didn’t really figure it out and now you get to these two smaller sample sizes here which is Terry plus Tyler plus bam with no Jimmy that one is about a plus 15 net now this is only a 44 minutes which is a very small sample size 44 minutes is nothing right but Terry Tyler and Bam that might be a lineup combination they can go to right like I said 15 net rating with a 132 offensive rating so that is fluky right like they’re not going to be able to keep that up over a whole season but to be able to be that potent offensively I think without Jimmy there’s something to that and I think you’re going to have to figure out some of the combinations in your rotation right um the defense is still not good in that lineup uh but the the offense is just super potent and then when you look at an even smaller set Le size which is Terry plus Tyler plus Jimmy with no bam in only 22 minutes so even even smaller right only 22 minutes negative 45 net rating so as soon as you take Bam off the floor and then it’s a 100 offensive rating 145 defensive rating so the defense is absolutely abysmal that without even looking it up I can tell you 145 defensive rating is probably twice as bad worst than NBA history probably probably yeah tiny sample size but it’s like it’s not even like your offense is good in those minutes even though it’s your three best shot creators on the floor pretty much uh with Terry Tyler and Jimmy so that’s I think it’s all about combinations here right and then just to kind of finish off what we have here I know it’s a lot bear with me folks but I I I’m I’m trying to get to something here when you look at Jimmy plus bam plus Tyler no Terry right so let’s say in a in a scenario where you know Terry’s not playing let’s say you you want to bring him Off the Bench next year whatever that combination the three of them with notary was a plus 4.11 n rating so all the talk about Jimmy and Bam and Tyler not being this great offense together it’s not amazing right like it’s a 114.5 offensive rating but their defensive rating is 110 um so I think you know you can look at that and then you look at Jimmy and Bam with Terry no Tyler it’s similar a plus 5.26 um net rating the uh defensive rating is almost exactly the same as a no as a uh not ter lineup and the offensive rating is actually a little bit better with plus you know with Jimmy bam Terry no Tyler so you’re seeing one of them off the floor and they’re doing stuff like they’re defending pretty well the offense is good enough the two of them together with bam is very good but in in a really small sample but when you put all four of them together like I mentioned up top like those results haven’t been the best we I already mentioned the Tyler and Dunc lineups how that hasn’t been the answer right so it does kind of feel like you know with the roster as it currently stands there are no easy answers because if you’re not starting like Terry and Tyler together you’re not starting you know Duncan with one of them two together you might have to talk about like I mentioned before the break you know a Caleb or Haywood or Del or hakz like you gotta go outside the box and half two of those gonna lose their minds no different options and it’s like because there’s no easy answer and it’s everything is telling you the four of them together is not the greatest fit and you might have to bench one of them but it’s just like there there is no easy answer for who you put in there instead well the other problem here is we don’t know that Duncan Robinson’s going to be the same player next year if he’s here I mean I I hope he is uh he expressed optimism um with his last interview with the media that he would be just needs rest but he’s never had a back injury before and back injuries are about as bad as you can possibly find and plus his particular back injury at least the way and I’m no I’m no doctor and I didn’t stay at a holiday in last night but uh at least the way that people talk about that back injury it is something that gets worse over time so I to count on him being your starting two guard next year with one of these two guys it does it does though give you an indication of why when Riley spoke to the media and answered my question when I asked him about what UD said about Tyler coming off the bench and he said Tyler is a starter and he did say at some point in that very long-winded answer that Terry uh could come off the bench so it’s either either one so it’s something that they’ve thought about and maybe they thought about at the time of the trade that okay at some point one of them can be a 30 minute a game bench guy um you know I kind of feel like Terry would take to that easier than Tyler would but then you’re starting Tyler and Duncan I mean we’ve had those conversations throughout the negative negative eight net rating this year the two of them with Jimmy and bam yeah yeah no so with a 138 defensive rating you’re right offens amazing right 130 offensive rating but 138 defens rating you you be you be Brady Greg and somebody else from five RSN might score off that group I don’t the four of us you know can get on the floor and allow 140 off I mean defensive rating we we we can allow that as my friend chandelle calls me I’ll just be coach sco um yeah I’ll sit on the sidelines and that you can you can take Brian and uh and and uh and Sean or Eternal or somebody else along those line yeah probably yeah exactly one of well Norris Cole is with our network from time to time you guys can handle him uh listen uh we 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We didn’t get to see much of Terry Rozier and Tyler Herro together on the court after Rozier’s acquisition by the Miami Heat. But we do know it’s one of the smaller backcourts — in terms of height, weight and length — in the NBA. Can it work? Ethan Skolnick hosts, and Alex Toledo brings the numbers.
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6 Comments
Not good enough
Q:How does that back court measure up?
A: They Don't.
#heatnationforlife
No. Just, no.
The simple answer is trade Tyler for someone functional. Every scenario that keeps him fills nobody with confidence.
Its Mitchell or Bust. If we don't land Donovan Mitchell theres not a realistic move available to make us a real championship contender
We have too many one dimensional players. Either all shooting and hope they shoot well enough to not be a negative or all defense and hope they shoot well enough to stay on the court.