Doc Rivers on the Celtics Going 3-0, Coaching the Bucks, and Jerry West | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Doc Rivers on the Celtics Going 3-0, Coaching the Bucks, and Jerry West | The Bill Simmons Podcast

just went to game three of Celtics Mavericks finals which we’re gonna talk about in a second but once upon a time I had an occasional podcast partner who would come on and we would talk basketball and I really look forward to it and I had a great time and I thought we really had something special and then one day I see the bottom ticker of ESPN and my podcast partner who had told me at dinner just a couple weeks before with Larry David as a witness how you didn’t miss coaching this was the most relaxed you’d ever been you can’t believe you hadn’t taken year off and then all of a sudden in a couple days you were the Milwaukee Bucks head coach and your explanation was I have a chance to coach Giannis that was really it yeah it was so funny because we did we had uh dinner great dinner everybody was relaxed I was very relaxed at the time and then uh the Bucks opportunity came up and I took it it was just such a good opportunity uh not only Yannis with Dame and Chris Middleton a team that had won it already um yeah things change quickly well and the case I made and we hadn’t we didn’t really have a long conversation about it but you know I was hurt I I was trying to put the pieces together but ultimately you’ve been competing your whole life right since I don’t know when you started playing basketball but then you played forever then you coached forever and it’s just this switch you you just couldn’t flick it off you have to compete you know it’s true bill but I would say this I was not going to just take any job and I told you guys that that night um if a coaching job had a just open that I didn’t think was the right organization or the right people uh the right guys to coach uh an opportunity to win or at least Bill winning I was out um and if that job had never surfaced again I was not GNA take a job I was literally sitting there I was getting better at golf finally uh you know that’s not what I heard but fine I’ll believe it on the Pod yeah we do have to talk about that because I heard right when I left there’s a guy named Larry David who made a comment that he’s gonna lose money now is that true I think that is true oh my goodness I think it I’m going to let him live with that I’m going to let him just what was it like to just walk into a season without a training camp and without a summer and without any knowledge of the team you’re coaching and you’re basically just coach for hire coming in trying to figure out your team the players all the coaches you have you’re in a new city you’re living in a hotel room like what were what were the first like three four weeks like it was hard uh Bill way harder honestly uh than I thought you know I coached for over 20 years I thought I can just jump right back into it um and and get things going and that just wasn’t the case uh first of all we were going to go on our toughest road trip of the Season uh right out right out of the gate um I think the biggest thing that I would say for anyone who has done this is that you don’t have your staff and I found that to be very difficult uh starting out um and and all the guys that I had were fine coaches they were good they just wasn’t mine they were I wasn’t used to in did right I inherited two staffs Bud’s old staff and then adrianne’s new staff because they they kind of comingled and and so now I’m coming in as a third person you know that was difficult trying to figure out who I would use in different spots defensively offensively all that was hard uh and then we had all the injuries but it did it it took a while but I will say this by the end of it uh I felt like man this is going to be a great job um you know obviously with Giannis out and and Dame injured and and Chris playing at probably 90% with his health uh you knew you wasn’t going to go far in the playoffs I did feel like if somehow we could sneak this first round out without Giannis uh with Dame getting healthy but not healthy uh if we can get to the second round and Giannis comes back I thought we could we could make a run uh but that never happened so the Giannis injury that I mean we’ve seen that injury a couple times where they’re little Cy about how long it’s going to be but if you if you just Google the injury you’re like oh that’s a month and a half injury so you know you know at least it’s three four weeks right and of course that takes you through the first round so you know you’re going to the first round without Giannis basically yeah I knew I know if anybody can come back would probably be him but I never thought that he would make it back for the first round I was hoping uh there was there was Whispers at maybe game seven I don’t think that would have happened and truth be told uh because after the playoffs were over and and watching him work out I don’t think he would have made it back for the Nick series uh until probably game three or four uh but you know that’s how playoffs are you you have to have health you have to have a lot of things to go for you go your way and we just didn’t have that does the KD what happened to him in 2019 hang over the heads of a situation like that it has to right it really does I was surprised by that um because it wasn’t in Achilles but it looked like one uh just like I was actually at the KD game yeah it was cers no no the Rockets yeah yeah it was the rockets and Austin was playing for the Rockets uh I think that was the first time or maybe the second time in my life that I got to see Austin play a live game that I wasn’t coaching him uh and I remember sitting in the stands and right when it happened you know as you did and everyone did we thought oh wow he just TS the killes yeah you know now with Giannis I didn’t know but I can tell you forget the KD flashback for me it was a kg flashback uh Utah because Utah I I remember sitting next to Eddie ler and kg was running down the floor all by himself and he just stopped and went to the floor and I remember Eddie ler to me and said this is bad uh because no one’s around like that’s the bad injuries in our league if if you run in the Collision injuries rarely happen it’s when you’re running by yourself and your body decides I’ve had it with something and and so honestly when that happened that was the first thing that I thought about was Kevin Garnett and somebody like Giannis he seems so indestructible you just assume it’s like a LeBron thing it’s shocking when he even tweaks anything you’re like how how are you even hurt you’re super human so when to watch him go down you go oh boy this has to be bad to have him be hurt no doubt especially knowing that he doesn’t like to sit in practice he doesn’t like to sit in games um you know fortunately we were up by like 40 against your Celtics that night if I if I remember right uh but even that game got close after yis went out they made a run so uh it was an interesting night for sure what was the most surprising thing just being with him dayto day for two months that you weren’t expecting obviously you coached against him you had a pretty good feel for him but was there anything you learned from the dayto day he’s a much better playmaker than I thought uh you know the the energy and the athleticism some of the things he does Bill you can watch him every day for the rest of your life but some of the things he does you’ll shake your head at every night you know um taking off from the elbow one dribble from half court making it to the basket I mean he he does things that no one else can do um but coming in and taking the job I thought one of the things that I had to do was make him a better playmaker see if he see if he can be a facilitator and I was surprised at his vision like he really has good Vision uh and he in a lot of ways was our point guard at times for us and I think that’s one of the reasons we miss him so much against the Pacers and then other than he’s our best player but um his vision surprised me uh it gave me more hope that when we get this right uh that we can really do some things offensively it was funny talking to you on podcast about Milwaukee before you took that job when you didn’t know you were gonna take the job yeah and talking about Giannis and Dame how it’s a little harder to mix those guys than maybe people think because ways people can sag off you know because Giannis isn’t a great three-point shooter and just little little tricks and just things you have to do so then you take the job and did you feel like you unlocked that at all by the end of the season or no yeah I thought we got really good at at a lot of little things with Dam and Giannis um you know I thought first of all they start connecting and their twom men game was becoming lethal I think he was second or third best in the league and it’s still in my opinion hasn’t scratched you know what was the most difficult thing and it took me a little bit to figure it out um Dame didn’t have the ball in his hands a lot at times and it was hard to to visualize like why is this happening um and and the reason is on misses when jannis gets the ball he’s Elite you want him to break out D was going backwards half the time to go get the ball jannis is gone right and and and so then you okay so misses Dame doesn’t get it unless it’s thrown ahead to him orless it comes to him in action but he has to be in front of the ball for that to happen and then on makes Giannis brought the ball up some and then Chris brought the ball up some and I started thinking like wait a minute if that happens we’re cutting about 80% of the time that Dame is used to having the ball right from Portland and you you just can’t do that and so what we came to by the end on makes D brought the ball up the floor 90% of the time on misses we wanted Giannis to go and so we’re getting the Best of Both Worlds and that’s to me is where we’re aheed we really never got a chance to to work on it but I thought that was a huge breakthrough for us and the Dame situation where he gets traded he leaves his family behind he’s going through a divorce and um just seemed like a lot of personal stuff that was weighing him down how did you how did you navigate that during the season and try to get his spirits up that’s hard uh that was really hard uh two things and you know it’s funny because I was podcasting with you in golfing with Larry I didn’t even realize that D was traded two or three days before training camp right uh and so D was telling me we were at dinner and he said coach I didn’t work out all summer it’s the first time in my life that I’ve not worked out I was so scared of getting injured working out oh because he was a possible trade yeah yeah he he knew he was gonna get traded so he said you know I did some light running I did some shooting uh with no one in the gym but I didn’t go at all he said I was I’m out of shape and and and he was honest about it that’s one of the reasons you love him because he is honest he said this is the worst shape I’ve ever been in and I and you know when you start camp that way you don’t ever get in shape you never catch up and he felt that way it’s it’s funny you know I start calling them names like like jokingly uh with them you know talking about his weight and he’s heavy and all summer now you know he’s I’m working twice a day uh uh I’m down to this like he is so proud that he’s in great shape right now already uh which is amazing it also tells you you know when I I shared this with him last week I said it’s amazing you’re doing two days right now and the Celtics and the Mavs are still playing right it just tells you how long of a journey it is for you to win a championship there’s half the league is back to work for next season and we still have two teams playing uh it doesn’t look like two teams will be playing much longer but we have two teams playing yeah there was a photo the other day at KD and Chad and another guy all working out getting ready and it is like it is crazy it’s so long plus we had the Olympics this year and uh you know we’ll see but I’m sure you’re watching the playoffs and we haven’t talked at least on the podcast in 2024 but you’re watching the playoffs and it’s just so funky right Denver Denver loses in round two um you have the east just kind of loses its marbles Butler gets hurt the Knicks just fall apart one guy by one guy by one guy you lose half your team and Beads hurt and then he’s healthy but he doesn’t still seem and the East just completely falls apart so on the one hand everybody’s like well Boston they haven’t beaten anybody on other hand you know these blew up but you’re probably watching it going holy [ __ ] if we had just gotten by round one yeah you know we match up with Boston the best in the conference well we felt that uh you still have to beat them you know Bill they’re they’re awful good and you got to give them their credit they’ve been the best team in the NBA the entire season and it’s almost like no one wanted to believe it you know it’s everywhere the criticism of Jason Tatum and and a brown and uh who’s the best player and they’re just I I tell you uh first of all I don’t think Joe gets enough credit I’ve shared that with you before I I think he is such a detailed coach I mean in the game tonight uh he fouls up you know up six with 22 seconds he was trying to foul right you know those are strategic things that are are big uh but watching how they play um it’s just absolutely beautiful how they play basketball right now they share the ball everybody accepts their role they know exactly where each other is at I don’t know how many more slot Cuts they’re going to get in this series where a guy drives a GU drives from the slot or cuts from the slot it’s a layup uh you drive you find the corner guy they they’re making the right plays every night and they’re they’re over themselves that’s what I I say this to you all the time about it’s so hard to win it is so hard to win a title and you know but when you see it you also it’s visual to me it’s like art for me when you watch you watch every single guy that is over themselves there’s no drama there’s no jealousies everybody is good with their role everybody is becoming star in their role and when you watch Boston you know Jaylen Brown’s going to be the MVP I guess of the finals through the first three games definitely yeah but you can make a strong case for holiday the second game I would have said he was leading the way yeah and he did stuff tonight like defensively I thought the play where he drove and got kicked for the three might have been the biggest play of the game and he just does it over and over white makes a big three you know when he came down to it and and Dallas made that run um the two biggest shots was um I think holiday drove kick 43 white makes the second three backto back bam the game’s put away again um and it’s what they do they’re just a solid well- coached team who you know Kevin Garnett made this comment years ago sometimes you’re good enough to win but you can’t because you’re not ready to win and and and Boston watching them play right now they’re ready to win they’re just playing that way I want to dive into this because I went to the game tonight and I saw the same thing you did so you’re talking about when teams get over themselves which I think is a great way to put it there was a moment in this game I was sitting on the behind the Celtics bench like about 10 rows up and they go on that run in the third quarter and I’ve watched so much of this team over the last seven years but the the one thing they have this year is they’ll go on these runs and they know they know it’s happening as it’s happening right there’s like a little Swagger to them now that I just don’t feel like they had another year so they go up 8570 at the end of the third quarter and then they hit to two threes at the start of the fourth quar they were up 9170 and I was watching the bench and how locked in everybody is and it really reminded me I texted Steve C I was like th this reminds me of what was happening with you guys two years ago it was somewhere between the fourth and the fifth game of the finals and just the team lot the Warriors locked in and you know these moments in the series where you’re like oh they figured this out I remember this happened with the 08 Celtics in the Piston series somewhere between game five and game six right and somewhere in game six was like this is over they’re winning this what happens how does explain cuz you’ve coached teams that that’s happened what happens when the Five Guys lock in like that and the bench locks in and everybody’s just like holy [ __ ] this is it it’s a commination of the whole season and and I it’s funny I had this conversation with our team this year um and our staff like each round you get better uh people who have never been on the journey have no idea deal how much you improve from round to round as a basketball team and it’s not that you’re improving as a player you’re improving as a team you start trusting each other more you start getting less uh insecure about stuff uh individual stuff um you you’re you’re no longer concerned about the one thing and that’s giving yourself to the team uh you buy into everything and there’s a happy place bill I really believe this there’s a happy place that teams get to and the only way they can get to it is by you know sometimes it happens in in the in the Eastern or Western Finals you can see oh boy they just hit the button and now now you’re gonna have to beat them you know what I mean and and Boston’s been there um but even in this series you can see like a year ago they lose the game tonight I agree they lose that game I actually think they lose it twice think they lose in the first quarter when it’s 19 to9 and the crowd’s into it I think they start doing herob ball threes and all of a sudden they’re down 20 and then they lose it again in the fourth quarter as the lead slipping away crowds into it they can’t buy a basket anymore everyone’s just jacking up 20f Footers and I think they they definitely would have lost it in 22 they definitely would have lost it last year and it’s the difference and it’s it comes down at the end of the day to trust the two things that happens the your star players trust everyone on the team including the coaches and then the the road players trust themselves and they trust the star players and and then when that all happens you you it’s almost impossible to beat that team um and you you see it every year every year it happens uh it happened to Denver last year you can go every year uh it’s funny it was beautiful golden State uh their last title because they had won it but then they lost it and then they had to go back on a journey and they had to to bring in some of these young guys Jordan p played great for them um then they had to it was like yeah Wiggins it was a retrust and what’s better to watch is you know Tatum is great to watch and and Brown’s been great but it’s it’s awesome to watch Derek Derek white um I’m forgetting the backup center tonight uh tman this this was a borderline Tillman game 11 minutes good defense on Luca hit a big Corner three he was great um you know uh Hower made big shots in the first half three for three yeah all trust though that’s all trust and and the only reason Hower can make that shot is the star players have to make a play and then they have to trust instead of forcing shots and that’s what they do watching the Celtics play in the first have compared to watching the mass play uh it was just twoo different the mass first time there in a long time first time there with this team and you can see the difference it it just takes it takes everything to win and the Celtics are doing it yeah the SS had 26 assists tonight Dallas had 15 and what they’ve done to Dallas the whole series is it’s herob ball one-on-one stuff nobody else is involved you know Kyrie and I think took 55 shots combined tonight and then you felt it in the end Luca fouls out and we’ll talk about the sixth foul in a second but um and it becomes like all right this is gonna be Kyrie show win or lose and as a Celtics fan who’s been with this Tatum Brown era now for you know two-thirds of a decade seven years this game played a lot of the hits where they look great uh oh we’re up 21 now it’s 15 now it’s 13 up there’s a lid on the basket like this is the exact type of game they’ve either lost or almost lost 20 times this year but then there’s this Kyrie piece where Kyrie he comes in as the big brother right Tatum’s first year yeah and then it doesn’t work out the second year and then all right the the last level of the video game now to go up three nothing in the finals you got to beat this dude that you played with and was supposed to be there for it was just weird it was like surreal to watch right it’s like this is how it’s going to end in game three yeah but it you know still you know it’s it’s funny because Dallas has gotten a lot of criticism because of their offense right and and what it’s not their offense is what the Celtics are doing to their offense you know yeah so explain that explain what they’re doing because I don’t think people fully understand it yeah B you have two superstars on Bost on on on the mths and they know that they’re going to Garner help they come into the game knowing that every team’s going to send two guys they’re always going to send extra guy when they get to the basket the Celtics aren’t doing that they’re staying home so in in a lot of ways the Celtics are getting away with guarding Luca for the most part and Kyrie all the time single coverage and even when they beat them off the dribble they’re still not sending help they’re saying uh beat us over the top make shots over the top we’re going to get out to all your players and and so you know and by the way spend energy doing that yeah spend Luka and Kyrie were dead in the third quarter and then they rallied a little bit but it was they were when you’re carrying an offense like that and just over and over again banging bodies like that’s and you know Luca’s not in the greatest shape either yeah no no he definitely not and and so like those shots that Washington was getting against Minnesota they were wide open now there’s someone there and you can see I don’t know how many times I thought there was a play late that they threw it to Washington into the corner and he should have shot it right away and he drove to the paint and he drove it and had nothing and and the reason he didn’t shoot is because people have been there all night and so you know he’s you know we always used to laugh he’s seeing people that aren’t there and on that one no one was there he should have shot the ball but that’s what happens and uh give Boston Credit their defensive game plan has been fantastic and let’s be honest they have the ability to do it they have so many good Defenders uh to me as good as brown has been offensively he’s been unbelievable defensively and and not only on Luka but more on Kyrie because of his size and his physicality he’s been amazing yeah I voted for brown for all NBA and part of the case was the two-way game and how hard he plays night to night because I I think especially in where the league is in 2024 and this is one of the things I love about Giannis who as you know is a competitive sociopath who just literally is incapable of not trying 100% brown was like that this year I thought Brown set the tone one of the reasons they W as many games as they I me they’re 79 and 20 right now which is you know how hard that is that’s a crazy record and one of the reasons is because that guy he went up a level and you know we’ve seen this really the money started to come in in the late 80s when you were in the league and ESP the 90s was when it really came in and we saw guys go a bunch of different directions right yeah you played against how many talented dudes in the 90s that once they got a contract it went sideways or something happened or they got hurt yeah it’s either a contract or um you know this this this is a different generation where everyone has their own like image and you know it’s harder to get everyone to buy in uh they’re they’re so worried about their brand and and the guys and the guys that win and they realize their brand is even better but Brown gets 304 million and everybody’s like oh my God that’s so much money he’s the most overpaid guy in the league he got better and I’ve been saying this on the Pod all year he’s been better all year he was the biggest guy in the game tonight on both ends he made the biggest shot of his career with a minute left when they’re they’re up two they need a basket Dallas is looming you could feel the Kyrie 3 coming and he hits this 18 foot is just money that won the game but I think the mental tough the mental toughness with him compared to two years ago it’s night and day it’s night and day and going left right he made that shot yeah um you watch him he this summer he worked on his game you know everyone said he couldn’t go laugh he couldn’t do these he’s done them I think the biggest difference watching Brown play for me is brown has fluctuated energy-wise I I think or or or Focus wise I think I think he’s mature I think he’s he’s he’s he’s turned into you know as we say a grown ass man and and he comes into every game with that that mindset uh and I think a lot of it is is work on the court but a lot of it is is who he is mentally and where he’s at and and that he’s grown up and you can see it remember when this happened to Paul when that year the Indiana loss when he took his he wore the thing on his head he so bad and all he’s in trade rumors but then he came back that next year and he was awesome and the team sucked but he was awesome and that was the first year he put together a really professional start to finish awesome two-way veteran leader year and then that led to’ 08 when you know he did it the whole year with kg and Ray and everybody Bill to this day I tell people the reason we wanted an ’08 is because of Ball’s second year with me uh you remember we we buttheads a lot uh because you know we had uh Paul I just heard him telling this on some podcast we had this big falling out of my office um and uh he he he was pissed because I asked him a question that he thought was why would you ask me this qu I asked him could he shoot I said are you a good shooter and you know Paul if you know Paul Paul Paul has confidence and and I remember him saying what kind of question is that so no I’m serious do you think you’re a good shooter and he says I’m a great shooter you know what are you talking about I said well you’re shooting 40% I said so Paul either you’re a shitty shooter or you’re taking crappy shots right you’re a great shooter who takes [ __ ] shots yeah I said it’s got to be one of the two you just told me you’re a great shooter but you’re shooting 40% and he was like yelling like what are you trying to tell me I said I’m trying to tell you you take bad shots and and if you want to be a winner you have to move the ball we’ll get the ball back to you and the defense has now shifted and you’ll score easy and I and I’ve told this a 100 times he came back in my office after buting heads the whole year and said we’re good now I didn’t know what that meant I I think I thought I knew I thought he was going to try it the way that I wanted to and he did it and that following year I me if you go look at his percentages they skyrocketed uh the problem is we sucked he should have been an NBA guy that year and the team was too bad should have been yeah he was great it made it easy though so when Kevin and Ray join it was easy for him he had already done that he already kind of given himself yeah so it’s the same thing he he grew up well that and the reason I wanted to talk about Paul vers Jaylen was Paul in that playoffs goes head-to-head with LeBron it’s a younger version of LeBron but it was still LeBron he was in the league for five years beats him in a game seven outplays him and and then in the finals let’s be honest he kind of outplayed Kobe like he like for real it’s it was he at least played him to a draw but the thing that was cool about it was he really thought he was as good as Kobe whether that’s true or not we could bait it I I I think we know the answer but he thought he was as good and that’s what I that’s what I’m seeing with Jaylen in this finals Luc is better than him but Jaylen doesn’t think that Jaylen really thinks it’s like me and Tatum are on this dude’s level and he’s carrying himself that way yeah but the thing that has made Jayden jayen great is the two things number one he thinks he’s better than everybody right and uh but he also knows he’s on a team with another great player and and is not a competition yeah it’s not a competition for them I think it used to be uh but it isn’t anymore and again I keep going back to the maturity thing and and and they’re competitive and that’s the point I meant with with Jaylen just watching how competitive he is now he doesn’t back down to anyone um and I do think Eden white uh I think Horford um I think Drew they all help him they all help each other um but man they are a connected basketball team and if you’re going to win you have to be connected does Jayla remind you of Paul he does um you know same size can get a shot wherever he wants you know Ty of players can guard smaller players bigger players he’s kind of stronger than you think better Defender than Paul and Paul was probably a better offensive player uh in some ways where where Paul was special and all the great ones the Kobes at the end of the game they could tell you they could tell their opponent where they’re going to get the shot at and where they’re going to shoot it from Paul of anybody I coach knew his spots yeah and he like if he can get to it there was nothing defensively you were going to do to stop him unless he just missed the shot uh and that’s what made Paul so good well you know what’s funny then you coach the ultimate example of all time of that Chris Paul who shot the same jumper from the same shot two inches over from the right side of the foul line over and over again and nobody ever realized he was shooting it from there going right A Thousand Times going right right yeah but you know what’s funny um as a coach I I do remember as a player Mike rello you know against the Milwaukee Bucks John Lucas went left left left left left beat me left three times and you know he calls a timeout he’s like screaming at me basically said you have another game like this you’ll be out of the league yelling at me and I’m thinking in my mind I swear to God I’m trying to keep him from going left he he’s good at it you know and and by the end of my career I was never on that level of these great great players but I remember a young player walking up to me before the game and said hey Doc you’re not going right tonight and I told him well I’m not going left so right something’s gonna happen but you great players they’re GNA get to their spot they just are they’re just that good at it well one you can see it every night yeah one of the things that was amazing this whole series but especially tonight because Kyrie he sucked in the first two games and and it was was a lot of herob ball stuff and he didn’t get his teammates involved it’s about as bad I think the crowd got to him there’s no question the game tonight you could see he had a hop in a step he was making threes and at some point especially in the second half holiday was like all right I got I got him yes and they started whatever holiday was doing and then Kyrie responded to it it was like watching those boxing matches where it’s like the the lightweights or like the you know that that like those 125 Pounders where they’re just they’re moving at a speed where you can’t even keep track and it just seemed faster than everyone else in the court but it was great to watch and the reality is it was a great moment for Kyrie and and they made him take herob ball shots and he couldn’t he couldn’t make the plays yeah and I you know it’s funny I don’t know if Kyrie sucked in the first two games or their defense made him struggle yeah or maybe both you know yeah and I think it’s a little bit of both I thought the biggest change tonight is you’re right I thought holiday instead of picking him up at half court because I thought Dallas did something really good tonight they took the ball out and they got the ball up the floor quick and so Boston never got into their full-court pressure right but then if you go watch the last six minutes think about it one of the biggest fouls of the game was they try to set a pick on holiday at half court because he was up pressuring the ball again and that’s what affects him uh and I thought he’d start doing it late and you know think about if you’re Currie Lucas’s out of the game I got holiday picking me up full court and once I get it across then I have to make the play and I have no other offensive Creator on the floor with me no one else that can create a shot for him so yeah he was he was he was against a lot the last five minutes you took over that bucks job and they had traded Drew what six months before was there still a shadow with Drew it all when you took the team over because I mean he was one of the most beloved bucks of all time yeah it was funny it was more not that they they wanted him back they loved Dame and all that but he was their leader you know he was he led by example and and by what he did um and you don’t just replace that that takes a little bit of time and and and think also again they did this trade late yeah you know so it it had everybody probably in a shock a little bit but but you heard his name like it’s funny I’ve always been a big holiday I’ve always liked him a lot I thought he he really took care of Austin his fresh his rookie year in New Orleans you know he was Austin’s rook and and Austin always you know I mean Austin being the first person we were talking about players and I remember Austin’s rookie year after his rookie year was sitting there having dinner he said you know who the most underrated player in the NBA is and I said who and he said Drew holiday I said what what are you talking about he said that this guy defensively there’s nobody in the lead that can do the things that he can do well then when you get to Milwaukee and you coach and you hear you just hear stories about him not on the floor just as a person and and you think man now you got to put this guy on another level uh you like him even more they just don’t make a lot of people like that and and you know like he he’s he’s like a champion um and and so it’s really cool you know it looks like he’s going to get another one and it’s because of not just his play but who he is yeah there’s a confidence with him yes that when you’ve won when you’ve won on the biggest stage and he had one of the great sequences probably in the history of the finals when he’s strip Booker and then throws the that crazy Al up to jannis you a play like that it’s like you’re you’re kind of minted after that but you could feel it in the first two Boston games because there was a couple moments Tatum wasn’t playing well in game one that game was never really in doubt but in game two there’s a couple moments when you know previous Celtics teams I think I don’t know if they would have folded but they could have had a little patch where all a sudden they’re down eight and he was I thought the alpha on the court which i i w I hadn’t gone to a playoff game yet until this series with them but I was surprised by that because he’s everyone says he’s a quiet guy quiet leader but there’s an intensity to him that you can kind of feel right he reminds you of morce cheeks in that way oh yeah that’s a good one yeah I mean morce cheeks would scores eight points in the game and they would be the most meaningful eight points a team makes a run and he’ push it up and take that quick pullup jump shot and then he’d go back to doing his other stuff and then they then he do it again Drew does it more you know he’s that plus a better score he does it more and that’s what makes him so good you know it’s it’s amazing watching all the little things that he does their team does you know they’re fun to watch I hate to say it because you know I’m the coach of the Milwaukee conference right yeah but they are a fun team to watch all right so Boston’s up 9170 and everyone on Dallas is disconnected the body language was awful nobody’s talking as you know I’m the body language one of the Premier body language Experts of all time Celtics body language A+ Dallas body language Lucas standing in the corner Kyrie’s over there and I’m like oh man we broke them we we broke them this happened then couple Miss shots Dallas makes a couple all of a sudden it’s coming back Luca picks up I think a fourth foul at some point he stupid foul on Pritchard just like a hand check foul it’s like the kind of foul when you’re the best player on the team and then the game you can’t have then he gets a fifth foul and then all of a sudden six foul when they’re really coming back it’s 9390 4112 left Jaylen drives it to him they call the foul now kid has to challenge right you have to but he’s moving they can’t reverse it were you shocked by that call this is the best guy in the game I didn’t like the call uh in general because I didn’t you know I just didn’t like to call but if you’re going to blow the whistle on that it was the right call right it absolutely was a foul you know it’s funny you know I was watching the game over Larry’s house yeah and Luca picks up his fourth foul and Larry will tell you I turned to him and said Luca is gonna foul out in this game he’s not going to make it through this game he’s really emotional um there was so you just you you read it you just didn’t like there’s something you noticed and didn’t like yeah I told Larry sitting right there I said LCA is gonna fou out in this game I said he’s really emotional there was a play and he got fouled on that drive you know towards the basket and I think it was Tatum forearms him falls out of bounds look they lost it that was a clear file that that to me that call literally has to be made uh they didn’t make it they just you know they didn’t make the call and and and so from that point on Luca those files came right after that he he just it he snapped you know in in some ways and you know I wouldn’t say snapped but he just I know what you mean he he just got lathered up yeah he got play he started playing Angry he started playing Angry he started playing fisical and he start he does this thing sometimes and all the great players do it they start daring the ref yeah uh well you didn’t call that make this call and so they said okay we’ll blow the whistle we will and listen you you have Cape as a ref and and Mark those aren’t the guys you want to mess with right you know and I Larry was laughing because I told him I said LC’s messing with the wrong group tonight right this this is not going to go well for him and and and it didn’t you know so it was we were laughing cuz play was laughing said you just said that I said you could see it happening you could literally see it happening well they I mean they were letting everything go it was a super physical game and I thought one of the reasons Dallas came back was because kids you know he’s one of the best 50 players ever he’s been in games like that and I think he told his team like ramp it up man they’re not calling anything because their defense got So Physical in the fourth quarter but it was working I mean it was one of the reasons Boston’s offense I know people they see it and they’re like oh Boston’s choking Dallas was hey this game turned into a rugby match and Dallas kind of realized it before Boston did and that was one of the reasons they came back I thought that was a reason and Boston did something that you do that’s another reason it’s so hard they thought about winning a title for about five or six minutes yeah they they started thinking oh my God we could close this on Friday yeah they you could feel it they start slowing the ball down uh they were they were milking the clock you can see it um and they had a momentary lapse uh of thinking about uh what’s ahead instead of staying locked in and then all of a sudden they got locked back in and they win the game I think it’ll allow them to close out now because they’ve already had their their scare you know Dallas is going to have to play unbelievable to win this next game or it’s going to be a sweep and the the thing we’re not talking about with Boston they’ve not lost a roow game in the playoffs this is an historic run if they if they win uh the next game they’ve only lost two games in the entire playoffs and they went undefeated on the road they’re 34 they’re I think 34 and 14 on the road just period this season yeah this was and I told you this so you know I’m I’m not lying everyone you know everyone asked me before every game what’s going to happen what do you think and once KP got scratched which we haven’t even talked about and I think people just assume Dallas game three they’re home they’re gonna win and I I was like I was telling everybody I think the souths are GNA win tonight because they haven’t made threes yet and for whatever reason I can’t explain it but they play better on the road and I don’t really fully understand especially Tatum I think he played I think home and I’ve asked people with the Celtics about this like why is Tatum better on the road than home what are the reasons and there’s a bunch of it right when you’re home you’re dealing with tickets for everybody you know you’re you’re with your family like the choir with you though yeah but usually you play better at home um the only place that I thought it was difficult to play at home was in Philly because of the crowd and it I thought it affected our players some but that’s I think this is the Tatum piece though I think people have been in him for so long when it’s not going well for him you can hear this weird murmur in the crowd yeah and it’s just that energy is a little weird and once that happens it’s hard to get it out of your brain when you’re a player uh but they are awful good on the road it’s amazing how comfortable they are and the other thing their Road players play well on the road which you know you know they had threes on the road they were 17 for 46 and that was one of the things I was telling people I was like watch our threes we’re over 15 that’s that’s where they need to be and by the way I think they’re going to be over 15 I think they’re finally going to hit some of these so you know they just played free and lose jayen Brown used a uh a term that I’ve never heard I loved it he he talked to about their bench and they they call him stay ready players and I’ve never heard that before and I was like oh I love that I’m using that I’m stealing that stay yeah he said the stay radies were were all great tonight uh and that says a lot about that that that team has had a lot of talk talk to each other about hey one might you may play 15 minutes one day you may play none you just have to stay ready and they’ve all bought into it and you can feel it that’s another thing we talk about made teams connected teams they be they’ve become that well and that’s the thing when K so KP that injury that I don’t I can’t even explain what it was like this it’s part of the body nobody ever heard of and they’re saying like the 30 people in America have had this injury this year it’s like okay um but then he gets scratched have you been in a situation like that where one of your best players is like all right he’s out he’s he’s 5050 my play my play no he’s actually not playing but with this team I was like I don’t know I think they might be okay that I they’re so deep they’re so deep I mean they really are uh your replacement is Horford and some Richard minutes and a little tman and tman was awesome tonight tman was unbelievable and and this is where from a coaching standpoint you’re so happy for any guy that has gone through the journeys that the Tans have gone through you know uh when when the Bucks woned you know obviously everybody was happy for Giannis and and and but you’re really happy for the the brook lopezes the pat conans of the world same thing that’s what a coach looks at is all the other guys that have to put in the same amount of work and sometimes even more work than the great player and and and they get their shine and it was really cool to watch one of your closest friends on the planet is Sam Cassell yeah who you’ve sat next to a lot who was on the o08 team he was at the tail end of his career but got a ring but then you went through a lot of wars with him and he’s on this Celtics bench what is what does he tell you about the team that you could talk about on a podcast without portraying him the closeness uh he says a couple things that um D Joe holds everybody accountable and everybody allows him to uh hold him accountable you know he he said something last week he said I remember you telling me he was talking to me and he said um that players have to allow their coach to coach them uh they have to they have to get to a place where you know what I’m just gonna drop my guard down and I’m gonna allow him to I I use the word get in there and just just let him do his thing um and then the coach on the other and has to allow the player to to do his thing through the team and that’s where they’re at and and he says it’s really amazing like um he said Joe holds them accountable um you know all the time and they’re allowing him to do that um and then the second part is is said he says all he said doc these boys are connected there’s there’s no the word I always use and he uses it now there’s no clutter there’s no clutter on this team there’s just none there’s no clutter uh there’s there nothing can shake this team uh and he talks about that all the time when you see the media [ __ ] that goes on and look I do three podcasts a week sometimes there’s narratives you want to talk about yeah uh but I’ve never the Tatum Brown thing I’m just I’m all in on those guys I’ve never never really wavered like this is there’s something special with these two but then when we get to the playoffs there’s nothing to talk about then it’s like who’s better Tatum or brown is Tatum good enough is Tatum Elite Tatum’s he’s a first team all NBA guy but is he really that good and how do you navigate that stuff as the coach because you know the guys see it they’re in a hotel room they’re on Twitter they’re getting texts from people um how do you keep their heads from not kind of drifting toward this dumb [ __ ] well as a coach who call it’s a peripheral opponent you know uh Pat Riley used to use that term all the time the periph your opponent um and you know it’s it’s more if your team is connected and if your team has a goal that is bigger than the individual it doesn’t affect the team it it really doesn’t um yeah I’m sure they all see it and they all hear it and the family members Bill oh can you believe they’re I mean they they you’re sitting at dinner and I can tell you it works you’re sitting at dinner sometimes with your family and your brother may be sitting there hey Jason can you believe they’re saying Jaylen is better and Jaylen is I guarantee you Jason hears it and it’s it’s white noise now like but a year ago two years ago they may have gotten a discussion out of them it’s blue noise yeah yeah yeah it’s so whatever you know what happens when you had this in 2008 Paul won the finals MVP could have made a really good case for Ray like a really good case I actually probably would have voted for Ray it was it was even either way right and I’m sure Ray didn’t care because he was so excited to win the title but that’s something in this that yeah that stuff happens in this current league I think it’s it’s even more so you know jayen wins the MVP of the Easter finals there was pure joy from everybody right and it becomes an ESPN segment anyway where they’re like wait was was Tatum really happy it’s like wait what he’s happily smiling and clapping and you know what we all miss like who’s every team’s best defender on Jason Tatum every night um and so we always miss that at sometimes like the reason the other guys can get off because sometimes they don’t have the best defender now in Brown’s case it doesn’t matter who guards him either they’re just two great players that plays on the same team that are over themselves and are more concerned about winning than they are about the individual stuff and that’s why they’re winning yeah did something Tau my podcast a couple days ago about he just the culture of basketball it’s like well somebody has to be the best player and that’s what happens because when Michael Jordan was in the Bulls he was the best player and piping was second and that’s just how we think about basketball happened once that you can make a case that the Detroit Pistons with Larry Brown that you couldn’t Circle who clearly was their best player yeah well you’d have to go way back cuz like the 79 Sonics were like that yeah yeah um even the 89 Pistons Isaiah was their best player even though they had a bunch of stuff but clearly kg was the best player you could have made a case for other guys but kg was the best player no doubt and and so but you need the best you need separators like you want your best player you want everybody to know you know uh perk always laugh I I I I swear I don’t remember doing this but it was in Milwaukee um we had won a game and I must have felt like Rondo perk baby all those guys start thinking that they were part of the big three okay it’s extended big three yeah and I I walked in the locker room after a win and said I want to make something clear tonight we have a big three we don’t have a big four we don’t have a big five we don’t have a big six we have a big three and this is who we play through every single time on the floor and these big three guys will get everybody else shots but don’t get this Twisted we have a big three like perk says that all the time I swear I don’t actually remember doing that but he him and Rond U who I was at Rondo’s Wedding by the way this past weekend which was amazing it was where it was where the James Harden toss the bouquet toss oh that was that video that was that ronda’s wedding so think about it 16 years ago since that team won and does it matter who you think was the best player of the 2008 Celtics not really do you think anybody like gives a [ __ ] and that’s the thing like let’s say the Celtics win Friday night Jaylen Brown wins the MVP and then two days later it’ be like Jason T basically what happened with Steph nine years ago right when Iguodala won the finals it’s like well what does this mean for Steph in his legacy it’s like I guarantee he doesn’t care he just won the title even though I thought Steph should have won the MVP that year I will say that but it didn’t matter like you know who did matter to the most was Steph he could care last he’s a champion that’s all that matters right and then we had the same thing when he was in the 17 and 18 Warriors when KD was there and it’s like you know he’s he’s really happy to win back-to-back titles I promise he’s not not sitting in bed at night going oh man I can’t believe I lost the finals MVP yeah for my legacy I need an MVP no he doesn’t and and he could have won that year too like it’s not like he wasn’t great in those series he was so yeah I think that’s the stuff that is talked about more outside of teams than it actually is worried about inside of teams and if it is a worry then that team’s not going to win if it is a worry with that team that’s not the team they’re not connected and they’re not going to win anyway do you see a scenario where Tatum and brown are just together the whole time like bird and MC were yes I do uh I think I do too I think because of the salary structures now uh that they’re going to both you know Tatum’s about to get paid a lot of money 315 and so once they sign those deals they’re basically on that team now the only difference is they’re both young so they have another both of them have another big contract coming yeah after this one and that will be the only time that that they would be considered possibly you you separate them but they could live an entire career together um which when you can do that for any team it’s it’s pretty special well what that’s the most special thing that like that’s what as at stake for clay this summer right because I’m sure Philly Orlando somebody’s gonna have a ton of money to offer him yeah but you got to start weighing like that’s a hard one you know it’s Jordan Pippen Pippen ended up leaving because Jordan retired but they played Jordan’s entire most of his entire career pretty special bird and Mel same thing but yeah it’s it’s a different level when you stick together that long I mean you had it with Joel embi and Ben Simmons oh wait no I guess I guess that’s a bad example no that wasn’t a good example that didn’t last long at all no but that but that’s that’s what you think about that that’s one of the reasons it is special when it happens like think about all these Tums threesoms oh my God this has so much potential and then it just blows up all of a sudden Ben Simmons is in lond as your season’s going on you’re like what happened we had this special thing where’d it go bill it can go so quick you know um you you think I think about all the years that I’ve coached and and and again I I’ll go back to all the teams that I’ve coached and and and there’s times where I think I’m I have my team overachieving at times I thought the Philly team you know the year before they got swept in the first round by Boston and now we’ve just won the regular season conference you know with the same team uh but it it doesn’t take much and that’s what’s so cool when teams win you know Vince started struggling with free throws and it became a thing uh the next thing you know he’s gone you know um I look at the the the Chris Paul game where in Oklahoma City you remember we about to win we’re gonna win that series we’re up and Chris is the smartest player in the NBA one of thep smartest play in NBA history and he had literally two minutes of mistake basketball yeah and you know we didn’t we didn’t foul we we we uh Chris tried to throw the ball from half court to draw a foul which you know those aren’t Chris Paul plays and and then we lose that game we we lose the next game and we’re out and and the team never returned back the same after that well and then you had the Josh Smith Cory Brewer game the next year the next year like um you know from a coaching standpoint we’re up and all of a sudden and and Chris was playing on one leg that’s the one thing I always tell people we didn’t have home court yeah uh and Chris is playing on one leg and then all of a sudden the the guys you want taking shots start think about that game Kevin mcel had benched James hard yeah um and he was about to [ __ ] take the white Howard out uh all of a sudden they win the game you know it’s uh it’s amazing I went to that game Harden had a towel on his head and he was checked out for the season and I think he might have been on Expedia making Vegas flights and then all of a sudden Josh Smith made a couple threes but that I mean that basically almost happened tonight yeah it was 9170 you know I think with the three-point era I never feel safe cuz I was getting congratulation texts and I I get so mad when people congratulate me especially with the Celtics team like don’t ever congratulate me during a Celtics game like I never save yeah no I just get mad I just pretend I don’t get them um all right this was fun I had a good time um you what happens Friday any guesses or do you not want to make a guess what do you what do you what do you expect from a big picture standpoint like down three nothing does Dallas Shake It Up do they just play the H they don’t shake it up I think they have to play the way they played this is what got them there um I think Luca and and Curry have to be incredible in this game for them to win um but I would not be surprised at all if Boston won four straight did you buy any like it’s game three and kid plays 11 guys in the first half when you’re at this stage of the playoffs in round four you really know who you’re eight or your nine is at this point that told me that he wasn’t positive who he could trust Beyond his his first couple right yeah you’re searching and that that happens uh you get down to you know um harderway hadn’t played a lot so you you you kind of knew coming in he was going to play a little bit more um you know they needed their role players to play better but it’s and I keep saying this it’s difficult because Boston’s not helping and so their role players aren’t getting the shots that they’re used to getting and I think it’s very difficult for them to play well yeah this game four is weird because you think oh yeah that they’re going to sweep but we’ve seen situ like in 2017 Golden State goes up three nothing with one of the four best basketball teams probably of all time and then they blow game four in Cleveland and they have to go back to Golden State and close so you you just never know wait last thing uh Jerry West yeah that’s sad you know I knew that he was struggling uh I saw his wife Karen a couple weeks ago uh you know I was able to text with him a couple times but um it really sad U but you know it’s sad because we lost Jerry West but then when you just sit back and think about this guy lived a life you know uh I remember I had I was at a a funeral years ago and a guy was talking about the dash you know whatever 20 you know 1904 to 2000 is where he lived and the dash in between he filled his Dash up you know yeah he filled the dash up completely you know through his life um and you know Jerry was a complicated person because he lived a very dark life you know growing up and and to beat those odds from West Virginia uh to become the logo uh to be as almost as good of a front office guy as you are as a player when you wanted to greatest players ever I mean the dude overachieved everything and and of all the people that you know maybe of anyone I’ve met his love and competitiveness for the game was unmatched if you talk to Jerry last week if you could and you start bringing up the Celtics series he would start crying he would start having literally tears in his eyes think about how long ago that was and it still affects him that they couldn’t break through um that just show you the passion and the love that he had for the game that that he was so great at yeah I loved researching him and when I was doing my book and he somehow he’s one of the 12 best players of all time still but it’s somehow underrated because he was so great year after year after year and had just the worst luck on the planet like it’s he wins one title but really could have won five um you just could go through and it’s like well if that didn’t happen if Elgen doesn’t get hurt Frank sish Shak goes you just you start banging all those out but what was really interesting was how the other players revered him and you know in the 69 finals hav goes up to him right after they win and just hugs him and he’s like I love you you I really want you to win a title someday I feel bad that we won like that’s how for a player to reach that kind of level with the other players that they’re trying to beat where they’re like I feel bad we’re beating you I I have never heard of that there’s very few people like that um and I think the reason was because the way he approached the game yeah um you know he played the game as pure as you can play it and as hard as you can play it uh and he had you know we always talk requirements he had the required amount of intensity every single night and it’s what what separated him yeah I thought even watching the tapes studying it I I he’s one of the guys from that era that you actually could have put into any era and I I think he’s probably just as effective he just would have figured it out it’s like oh we have a three-point line now I’ll become one of the best three-point line like he switched positions you know how hard this is he’s basically the point guard of the Lakers the last four or five years he was a shooting guard bringing the ball up he led the league an assists you know he whatever it took he did you know who could have been a great player in this era Kevin Garnett because Garnett would have been a he would have been a great three-point shooter uh you know no one just took him but I always think man he was almost made for this era and then the last thing I’m gonna say about eras before we get too lost is every old player loves that the game over the second half of the Year became physical and scoring dropped just it answers every question you know all the arguments well the game was more physical and then you have these guys saying the game is nothing more physical it’s we guys would have scored in your no the game’s physical and scoring dropped and and it’s a better game to watch right now in my opinion because they’re not calling all these files they’re allowing them to play and the game right now is really perfectly wrapped and played and I love how they’re doing it so when you were coaching you you noticed this immediately that they flipped the r no I just noticed they wasn’t calling files and you know the only mistake that the league didn’t tell anybody at first usually we get memos hey guys we’re going to stop calling this it was it was like they had a meeting in some dark office say hey we’re just going to start letting them play but it didn’t take long and then Adam had to come out and say yeah we’re allowing it uh but it was obvious I mean think about I I coached the game this year bill against the Boston Celtics that there were two two foul shots in the entire game but you probably loved it I loved it you know what I loved the game was over in under two hours it was unbelievable it it was amazing so I actually like I love how the game is being played right now it’s good well I like I like what you said about the dash with Jerry West because I think start to finish lifetime of basketball he’s got to had that has to be the greatest career anyone had right he was the top 15 player ever and then was the top five executive ever he he his Dash is full completely he lived a life that no one in NBA history has ever lived um you know you won’t look at the year that he was born you shouldn’t look at the year he died you should look at the dash in between from College from high school to Pros the man lived his life to the fullest and you know God bless him we’re going to miss him [Music]

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Doc Rivers to talk about the NBA Finals, Coaching the Bucks, and remembering Jerry West.

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