Chase Down Podcast Live, presented by fubo: Shaping the Roster

Chase Down Podcast Live, presented by fubo: Shaping the Roster

[Music] [Music] [Applause] this crowd Rises to its feet Theo slammed it home garlet left wing free ball perfect the lane lock the mly p and Allen blocked the shot of the rim how with the left hand and a foul welcome to the chase down podcast part of the C media family I’m your host D Row the chase down is presented by fubo the official streaming partner of the Cavs watch over 350 channels of live sports and TV including B Sports Ohio without cable there’s no cost and no commitment try for free at fubotv.com Cavs the NBA finals are you know they’re underway we’re we’re two games deep we are of course trying to counter program them on today’s podcast but that means that the NBA season is coming to a close at most there are five games left of this season which means we are in full on offseason mode joining me today to discuss everything going on with the Cavs and what we have to look ahead for uh these next couple weeks is my co-host Carter Rodriguez Carter how you doing buddy doing well um you know fighting a little bit of a cold some scratchy throat uh issues you know but I uh you know I’m tough I can make it and if uh if I stop talking Midway through it’s cuz I’m starting to lose my voice well we appreciate you toughing it out Carter we tried to push this back a little bit but we ran out of days we we ran out of days and and you know we got to get this podcast up we got to get the people what they want uh before we dive into the meat of today’s podcast um the Cavs coaching surge is still ongoing uh there were reports that they met with James burgo earlier this week and Kenny ainson uh saw some reports but no confirmation that uh you know know Mike and Nory may be getting an interview later this week um again I don’t have a lot of strong takes but I do like that uh at least the the candidates that are most visible uh cuz we can’t make an assumption that this is all of them there’s probably a whole lot more that don’t even kind of enter the public sphere uh but I I like the names that have been listed so far they they’re coaches that you know have an offens of mind my preference because I’m a chicken not because I think it’s the right way to go just because I’m a a coward and risk adverse by Nature is to go with someone with some head coaching experience um so I I probably when when I see you know the list of potential candidates I like burgo and Kenny the most out that but you know we’re we’re still uh we’re still without a coach when it comes to the Cavs yeah um it’s funny I know everything uh you know everything Smart in my brain says don’t have an opinion I am starting to develop one I think I think I am pretty excited about the idea of James bgo obviously I think you know I I feel like it I’ve gone through with this coaching search kind of the ups and downs of like okay we are entering a coaching search and there are no established names in the market and I haven’t really heard a lot of PR about any like you know Jordie Fernandez like examples like probably was probably the hottest unproven name on the market MH but and holes are probably the hottest proven name on the market and both those guys are gone so part of me my brain was like oh man are we going to be able to find someone that is actually like we can get excited about um and then you know as it as it always happens you know it’s a super I mean there’s only 30 jobs there’s better than 30 NBA head coaches in the world you know from a talent perspective and so you you start hearing all these guys coming in guys like Nory Adelman uh bgo Atkinson you’re go well okay I can see why any of these guys will make our team better or different in a way that uh you know or different in a way that we’ll learn a little bit more about about you know what these guys can bring to the table so like ultimately I think I’m excited uh I’m I’m excited to see whoever they go with I am actually most excited that they seem to really be following a process here like I think that’s the important Point honestly I think that’s the most important point that you know you got an interview scheduled for this week even if you you know you you feel really good about the bgo uh interview and how that went you’re still going through the process right you’re doing your due diligence you’re being thorough I I I’m very glad that you brought that up yeah and like you know it’s the market isn’t so there is no strong candidate where you go we can’t do anyone but this you know it must be this guy you know I I don’t think that’s where the market is right now so like uh you know I lot of name that’s won a playoff game to to put a fine point on it yeah so like I think really talking fig out who’s going to sell best on your on on the vision I think is really important really valuable and um I’m glad they aren’t getting themselves caught up in Making a Splash signing or doesn’t seem like that Lake Lakers job looming is making this front office feel like they need to snatch someone up just to snatch them up like it’s like hey we’re gonna we’re going to operate on our timeline this is a great job with a great young core and by the way goes just goes back to show you the fact that like you know wi horse goes on the radio today and pretty much roundly says that coaches think that the Cavs job is a better job than the Lakers job you know and uh and that’s which goes back to your rant on the last podcast almost like there’s good players here um yeah there there’s no Talent here but people really cover the job yeah so uh so like I think I I think like they they are operating like a team you know much like that Kobe presser to start the offseason just feel like they’re operating a team that isn’t apologizing for the path they’ve taken and as someone who has mostly liked the path they’ve taken I’m cool with that uh so I will say the bgo thing just the fact that he got those derel Hornets teams to the play in to the to the nine 10 spot winning for up to 43 games in one of those Seasons with not that much talent not a particularly well fitting roster not a lot of positional depth and they figured it out out he he figured it out he had two ball dominant smaller guards and you know won games with them he got squeezed really good offense out of those rosters one one thing I like is you know having three players that average over 20 points per game like that’s you know that’s a nice sign and our our our buddies over at real C fans I saw that they tweeted out you know just kind of a a head-to-head comparison of H bgo and ainson and if you believe in kind of estimated wins and that sort of thing wins above replacements um those Hornets teams overachieved more uh given the the talent there now I don’t put of just to put my cards on the table I don’t put a lot of stock in those kind of stats those kind of uh above replacement value uh catchall stats when it comes to basketball because it’s not baseball um but you know like you’re talking about two coaches that got teams to overachieve and I think that that that’s a really important thing particularly when you factor in that you know the overachieving was done on the offensive end of the floor and and you know obviously two coaches that are very highly talked about too um so I I I as I said I’m risk adverse so I’m always going to lean towards the experience you’re right it’s silly to kind of develop strong opinions but it’s going to be a little similar to you know dra the draft in general like I’m not going to sit here and be an expert uh I’m not going to pretend to be an expert but I will develop strong opinions uh based on very limited knowledge and you know I think it’s one of the areas where when we talk about the Cavs over the regular season I don’t I wouldn’t say we’re experts but we’re people that put in a lot of hours and a lot of time thinking about this and you know diving into the data and whatnot when it comes to coaching searches and drafts we get to be a little bit of a dumb fan sometimes and and we can uh we can follow our hearts a little bit and be irrational with what we want to uh prioritize and what data points we we want to put stock in yeah the one last thing I wanted to say about bgo that I do find interesting about uh is during his tenure in Charlotte he talked like a defense first coach that was kind of the message he sent was defense defense defense and didn’t seem to be much of an offensive guy based on what you heard in pressers and yet their defense was very very poor now I would argue a lot of that’s based on Personnel they did not have guys who guarded uh the way he would have in Cleveland um but it’s just an interesting Little T bit I guess I would say is like the guy who talked more about defense uh ended up coaching a a very offensively driven team and uh he he often made and I I would consider that a mark in his favor it’s like hey I’m a coach that wants to coach defense but my best chance to win is PJ Washington of the five with this team so I’m going to just go ahead and play the minutes that give my team the best chance to win so just a little interesting tidbit um uh with and it’s it’s not like they got much better defensively either after bringing back Steve Clifford um you know he he comes from the papovich tree so uh there’s a lot of structure to both how they play offensively and defensively and you know going back to our conversation last week I I think structure is really one of my kind of priorities when it comes to the Cavs I I’d like to see them be a little more versatile I’d like to see the burden lessened on both Donovan Mitchell and like to see the players commit to that structure a absolutely right and you know some some of that obviously is buying and we we’ll see how it translates anytime you’re making a change like this like there is no guarantee that it’s going to improve right like everything is a calculat risk at this point but you know all you can do is kind of go off with the data that’s available to you and what’s you know publicly available with a lot of these candidates so far is at least encouraging and it’s at least an interesting swing to take I’m not going to sit here and uh assume that anything is going to get better but you know we’re process over results a lot of the times and I just I feel comfortable with at least the public parts of this process that we’ve been able to to kind of hear through the media yeah unless they go completely out a left field with the higher which in which case I’ll have to kind of re-evaluate um I’m I’m pretty sure no matter who they hire I’ll be pretty pleased with because I know that they really did their diligence and you know um it seems like honestly if they do go left field they did their diligence so you know it would be an educated gamble at that point too sure sure but like this process it would be the way would be what I would want to see even if you’re pretty sure you know your guy like you you hold a lot of cards you don’t need to rush and I I I I like that I like that they’ve done that yep the very very good points uh obviously you know the other major component that we’re going to be analyzing when it comes to the cows of the season is how does the rest of it come together right uh there’s reporting out there that the Cavs are not showing any real willingness to to entertain offers when it comes to the core and and they you know want to run things back and you know that’s I know warms our hearts a little bit too as people that fall in love and get invested with the guys that are on the team right like I’m always interested in in figuring how that works and you know we talked about the fit of the core on the last podcast and before we really you know dive into draft coverage which I think we’re going to do in depth next uh week um I we’ll touch on it a little bit today but I think the most important thing before we get into any of that is evaluating the needs that the Cleveland Cavaliers have when it comes to their Supporting Cast because they’re going to have opportunities to address that both through the draft they’re going to have opportunities to address that through free agency and obviously you know evaluate the options that are available on the trade market but that’s always a little bit trickier because the skill sets and the types of talent that the Cavs probably need the most are the toughest to obtain they are very rare period when you look kind of team to team and teams that do have those guys there it’s very very hard to acquire uh you know those kind of archetypal wings uh that I I would make an assumption that that’s the the type of player that we would like to see listen man I said I was interested in becoming the grit and grind Grizz I I didn’t mean like this uh the Perpetual search for the big Wing that can take you home uh he they had Rudy man Rudy Gay even there you you have a guy that the from an archetype standpoint Rudy Gay is that perfect big Wing man like that that is exactly what you wanted but it just didn’t work out he couldn’t shoot he wasn’t a perfect shooter will shooter but but yeah I mean uh I I do think it is going to be an interesting I’ve been thinking about this a lot Justin because you know I’ve I feel like in our Discord a little less on Twitter but especially in our Discord I’ve kind of been the one pounding my hands on the desk saying I’m not trading a core 4 team member just to just to trade them just cuz I I’m not so sure you know we talked about it on our last pot about how the lineup data especially in the playoffs doesn’t really give you enough information to say you know there’s no there’s no easy thread to pull that says we must do this so short of that data I’m not in the I wasn’t interested in trading one of the core four just to trade them uh and you know dealing from a position of weakness where you felt like you had to make a move so that does beg the follow-up question that I I haven’t really spent enough time considering until now which is well if you don’t trade the core for how much are you trying to change you know like if the top four out of your eight or nine man rotation aren’t that different and pretty much your whole roster Sans Isaac okoro is locked up to a deal is you know how much are you looking to kind of Juggle around positions 5 through n in your rotation whether whether by benching certain guys and giving other guys more run whether whether it’s a big splash whether it’s trading like you mentioned like it’s like what’s the right amount of change if you’re not going to bring if you are going to bring back your top four guys yeah and honestly I think there’s going to be an evaluation to to see what’s available on the trade market like I think that it’s going to include you know doing due diligence when when it comes to what’s available for the core as well right but like I said those types of players that you would covet aren’t you know they’re not common in the NBA to begin with when when you talk about you know big wings that are able to provide three-point shooting defense and playmaking like those guys are superstars those guys are Paul George right like it’s just and also finding one that aligns with the timeline kind of understanding that Evan Moy is still a few years away from his prime it’s a tough needle and team building in the NBA and really in any any sport but I I think it’s particularly true for the NBA it’s all about what compromises you’re willing to make uh you know you may have an idea of what type of archetypes you would ideally want to have uh alongside your core players but you know it’s tough to find those guys there are no perfect fits you’re going to have to sacrifice certain aspects of your team and certain aspects of lineups in order to get as much talent on the court as POS as possible and often when it comes down to the NBA it’s about getting as much talent on the court as possible and maximizing that talent that you do have and I think that ties into the conversation I’d like to have today which is how do we best maximize the talent that’s available to them which is I guess the first question that comes there is after two years of seeing this group together what skill sets do you still feel like the Cavs need the most when it comes to bringing the best out of this core um you know it’s so tough because I feel like the last year that what I would call like a lack of consistent commitment to an identity to structure it kind of warped the experience you know because so much was just being generated from the guards at the point of attack so like I think that’s one of the reasons I I was so Juiced on bringing in a new coach uh you know by the time we wrapped up the year was that I did just kind of want to see you know how much of this is how much of the shortcomings of the offense right now can be strict can be just fixed strictly by running and committing to a different sort of offense a little bit more consistently so that is my that is my kind of um my disclaimer a little bit um but on both ends of the floor man again I just I really don’t like how small the team is um and and I know this is going to be one of our big uh probably one of our bigger arguments of the of the summer because I don’t think you care as much um but I just see especially I feel like this is a team that masquerades as a big team because they play the two bigs in the front court but every at every other position they are positionally small um and that’s for their starters you know Darius Donovan Max are all I would say smaller than a lot of their peers at the one two and the three and Jared is as big as most of his peers at the five and smaller than a lot of those guys by the way um and then even on the bench like guys like Craig Porter Jr are small um you know Isaac okoro plays a lot of the three but he’s really 64 65 uh Caris Caris has decent size but isn’t a excessively physical player yeah Dean is okay for a four a slightly smaller four and they don’t play a backup five so like Nang you know also a bit of a undersized four as well um and it’s like if you’re just they’re just small at every position so like I think one thing that I really want to see with this offseason is like okay if you’re not 100% sure with your core 4 build in some structure to give you some looks that you can really succeed with with you know one of those guys not playing you know if you are going to longterm figure out like where everyone’s going to plug in I I think getting a little bigger makes it easier to downshift every now and then cuz like I just think every time I watch the team play with only Moy or only Allen on the floor I think man we’re asking Moy or Allen to do a lot of work for everyone else and when you do switch when you’re playing these positional it it just feels such like such a Far Cry Justin from the Markin and Moy Allen lineups that they were running where if you got where you had two SF Footers on the floor pretty much at all times so even if what even if Mo or Allen got pulled out of the paint on a on a switch with the other one sitting on the bench you still had something on the back line there was a lot of Max stru fighting guys off on the dunker spot or or Donovan Mitchell fighting guys off on the dunker spot and like that physical disad Vantage really bothered me against Orlando and against uh Boston who isn’t positionally huge at the guard position but they’re so big at the forward position that I felt like you really felt it for the Cavs sorry that was a long answer no I and I appreciate your answer and you know keep that voice warm if you uh if you need to like it’s like going to the exercise bike when you come out of the game if you need to just kind of Mumble under your breath a little bit to keep it going I’m fine with that um I I just find that so interesting because I I’m actually more in agreeance with you than you probably think but I find it interesting because last offseason we were talking about hey I’m willing to sacrifice some size to get that skill set in this house right like that that’s our hey we we can get a you can get a Max truce because we need movement shooting and I will take someone that’s you know maybe more of a four but provides movement shooting or someone that’s maybe more of a two but provides movement shooting and we can play them at the three we were valuing the skill set more than the archetype and and you know I I think this is trying to find that balance right between getting that size getting the the skill positions in as much as I want to add size I think the need when I I’m thinking about what I would like to see the Cavs add in this off season and I don’t know if it’s in house like it’s possible as I say this it’s possible that the ability to do so is already on the roster but the offensive scheme was too rigid I I honestly don’t know but I think that they need to add playmaking I think it’s too predictable when you look at this C roster who the play initiators are and who the play finishers are and and I think especially when you go further down in the lineup like I actually think streu did a good job as a playmaker I think he made a leap in that regard and you know honestly from a playmaking standpoint that’s starting lineup like Darius we know is a savant he he’s a great playmaker Donovan I think had his best playmaking season streu had his best Moy Allen I think all five of them are very good Playmakers for their position but as you stagger as you go further down the lineup I think it just became too defined of this person is going to initiate the offense and everybody else is out here and they’re going to be play finishers whereas when you played Boston in that series all five guys could initiate the offense right you can run a two-man game with just almost any position on the court and I think that offensive versatility and their ability to generate looks from a variety of positions really makes their offense more difficult to defend and I think that’s that’s the main thing in the playoffs because you you look at these finals and probably with me saying this right now they’re they’re every team’s going to shoot 80% tonight and it’s going to be an offensive you know amazing game but like those teams are shooting like crap in the finals but they’re still able to you know generate good enough looks they’re able to generate offense in other ways and find ways to compensate for that whereas with the Cavs like if the initiators are creating good looks and those shots just aren’t falling or teams can you know really throw double teams at at Donovan and or or trap Darius and kind of force them to be uncomfortable there’s no other option that you can go to reliably that’s going to get the defense out of kind of whatever their game plan is and I I think that it’s just a lack of playmaking and I think that gets exacerbated when you play the best teams in the league because when you play some of these teams I think we’ve seen Darius be too passive I think we’ve seen Moy be too passive and when you play those type of defenses Donovan’s like playmaking uh vision gets narrow the the blinders come on a little bit and he sees everyone else struggling and he tries to you know Elevate the team with his own individual scoring and I just feel like adding playmaking and adding some juice to the offense and initiation at other positions to me that’s almost more important because I think that their shooting Talent on this team is just getting to those quality shots and generating them at a consistent enough rate in a variety of ways that can get these guys that all have reputations as Shooters to be more confident and more reliable Shooters o over the course of a season in playoffs yeah I think the thing that I think defining playmaking is probably pretty important here because one thing that you probably don’t want more of is more dribblers you know like and I know that’s a weird thing to say but like I don’t want more like you know like Caris has brought a lot of value to this team but like you know a lot of what Caris does is a little bit on his own schedule on his own Rhythm you know and like you know I don’t want to go get another like lead guard even if they’re like on the wing that is just going to take more control of the offense so it’s I find it to be a pretty fine line here that and and this is the hard part of build of team building cuz like I’m looking for size that can still hang skill-wise and you’re looking for playmaking that can uh that can that can probably that can help raise the team’s floor and ceiling without taking away control from Darius Donovan Evan and Reps from Darius Donovan Evan that ultimately are going to drive the team so like I’m going to throw a name to you just to get a sense of like is that the playmaking you have in mind like a guy like Nick patum maybe not Nick patum but like is that what you’re talking about in terms of guy who can catch it in dribble run a pick and roll but isn’t going to be a high touch guy or do you have a different archetype of player in mind that I’m not hearing I think I think I want a little bit more explosiveness like I understand name an archetype not think they don’t have to be a free agent or like a player or an example they don’t have to be someone who we can actually get but who do you have in mind let let’s go with a name that’s been on the trade market that we’ve liked a lot in the past but I think both of us have trepidation uh regarding in Brandon Ingram of you know a big Wing that’s able to generate off defense and we worry about that now and and you know we we’ve had these conversations privately but like worrying about that alongside a Garland Mitchell and Moy when you want to get those guys developmental reps and you know there’s only one ball and you want Moy to improve as a playmaker and maybe that’s something that becomes more feasible like maybe we have a concern with that archetype based on what we’ve seen over these last two years but that’s less of an issue if you bring in someone like a James bgo that comes from that pop School of coaching where you know I don’t want touches to go beyond like two seconds like I just think that player that AR version of player is way too good for someone we’re going to be able to get I I am talk I’m I’m I’m talking like a scaled down version of that archetype but just because you know we’re we’re podcasting now and I I like I even someone man like it’s at a smaller position but like what Derek White’s able to provide for the Celtics right like again these guys are here’s the thing bro and like this is what my brain is going to when we’re having this conversation for both of us is maybe you’re going to have to find a road to a two for one from an asset perspective not maybe not player maybe not two players but you might have to go try to chase something at a transactional level that consolidates you know two or three pieces whether it’s picks players whatever into one because the kinds of guys we want are not guys you can get even for the mid level yeah my my brain’s going too too you know high with the names I think it’s weakening my point but here here’s one that unrestricted free agent Kelly UB like someone like that where you know it’s similar to Caris where you know uh sometimes he’s going to go Rogue and he’s going to generate his own offense but he is someone that can bend the defense and I I just think that that ability wit’s size is really really damn important it’s why I was enamored with him in the free agency process last year because you know even though you’re making some compromises there that’s someone that is able to manipulate a defense he’s able to you know they’re cheating over on darus they’re cheating over on Donovan they’re they’re they’re hedging they’re trapping they’re blitzing you that means two guys are basically being assigned to one player and I want to have a front Court player that is able to capitalize on that so you know Kelly UB would would be a name kind of in that archetype that I would have some interest in yeah it it’s tough man it’s tough to go to like to you’re again I I’ve said this more than once and I’ll say it again this is a huge off season for Kobe in the front office to go win some transactions like I don’t think that this roster needs someone to to to hit a single or a sack fly like Kobe needs to hit some doubles and triples a home run would be lovely but like I do think like you know I spent the entire season talking about pumpkin insurance and and you know it just didn’t really play out in the postseason there really we were back to really only having seven and a half guys we could really count on now it’s better from like the five and a half we had the year prior but not enough and like and and then we started dropping starters yeah and and of course that you know that makes things even harder but like I think that there is a degree to which like you might need one or two more B+ type players you know one or two more Derek whites PJ Washington’s Daniel gafford’s guys that you’re just sure can be out there you know yeah um no matter what no matter you know or maybe you have a rough game or two but you’re not just going to be a no chance you know like like I thought stru even though streu didn’t shoot well like I at no point felt like stru didn’t belong on the floor in the postseason I agree you know I felt like we needed stru a little more than I think would be ideal like I think on the player need Power Rankings it would be nice if he could be knocked down like one rung but like you know like more guys at least at that level I think is going to be really important for this roster because I think we’re we’ve kind of seen the limitations of the Specialists yeah you know it is tough to find A+ help and I think that’s why we’re so appreciative with the help that we get from Zoom uh support for this podcast and the following message comes from Zoom half a million businesses Connect using Zoom a single platform for phone chat workspaces events apps and video Zoom enables real-time collaboration for teams around the globe Zoom how the world connects Carter what I’m really happy with that point you made there uh about kind of finding that consistent help because you know I dove into kind of the Staggering combinations that we had with the the core uh over the last two seasons and you know I obviously I think the follow-up research that needed to happen there and you know I I really appreciate the listeners that reached out that enjoyed the podcast and you know added to the conversation and particularly you know the ones in the Discord that you know built off of those points but I wanted to dive into who most frequently is there with these guys when when we’re staggering and the thing that struck me is and you know some of this is tied to injuries but the just total number of possessions that we get there’s not a large sample with any one group and I think continuity is so important when it comes to basketball because you need to have that second nature understanding of what the guys are out there uh what their Tendencies are where you need to cut where you need to be and you know just looking kind of up and down those different combinations the ones that played together the most rocked like Garland and Moy the the unit that they played the most together with is Caris LeVert Isaac okoro and George Nang that lineup was a plus 22.5 net rating this year and that was 236 possessions that’s phenomenal there was not another pairing with Moi and Garland this season that played more than 50 possessions like that’s simply not enough and again that ties to to health but I think that also just ties to you know trying to find out combinations that work trying to find the the support players that work cuz the other two most used lineups over the last two years are Levert Jetty and love and Levert aoro and Jetty and both like that’s that’s nuts like these are guys that not are not on the team and even when you look into okay like Mitchell and Moy um we we talked about how that lineup data is not good when it’s just the two of them out there there is not a group of three players that have played with Mitchell and mo that have played 100 possessions with them over the last two years combined the the most is 88 possessions stru Levert and the Yang and that lineup rocks it’s a plus 24.1 like so it’s all these other kind of mishmash combinations that don’t really get to play together a whole lot that don’t perform well and I think that’s a really really important thing to point out and trying to find these role guys that you can consistently find if you’re keeping this core together finding role players that can stay on the court consistently that you’re you’re not making so many compromises or trying to figure out on a game to game basis what they’re going to bring to the table like Jetty was back in the day and you know finding those combinations that work I think is the the most important thing yeah I I want to ask you um you mentioned the guys that you know take a little bit off the court as much as they add or you know like how you know do you think the team is over indexed on Specialists I don’t think so I I think that is something that you could take the result and work backwards towards but when you look at players that were available to them in the draft when they brought in the guys that were acquired by the draft and when you look at the free agents that were brought in they’re kind of like the best and most versatile options right like I I think you know the best Shooters on last year’s Market were Max stru and George Nang they they brought in you know the the shooting talent and I think strew showed that he was more versatile than we expected George Nang had a very tough season but he was driving more than I expected he was showing something new in his game um Love George but you know it it was a tough season for him but I don’t think you know they’re going into this saying hey we’re going to bring in Specialists everyone’s going to have these rigid really defined roles and then we’re going to work from there I think you know whether it’s guys not getting enough of an opportunity to spread their wings um or the rigidity of the offense I I think you know I think both that is my take uh to be honest is like I’m not sure if the team has over you know over indexed on Specialists or not but I will say that I think the the spots a lot of them were put in were you know like I think that’ll I think we’ll actually I here’s what I’ll say I think we’ll know by next year if they’ve over index on specialist if they don’t do big changes with with the role players on the roster you know if we see Isaac okoro involved in the offense and and running secondary pick and roles and and cutting through you know then we go is that the name that at the top of the list talk about being put in a box you know of course it is and like I think we’ll know real quick if it’s like Isaac was you know in a too limited of a role too specific of a box or Isaac is is too much of a specialist you know like uh same goes with guys like Sam Merill um same goes with guys like George Nang same goes um even with a guy like Evan Mobley who I thought you know kind of became mostly a dive in Finish guy you know he was not doing nearly as much playmaking from the elbow I felt like this year as he was last year I don’t know if the numbers support that but um particularly after the the surgery I would say yep so so I think like I think know a lot based I I’m not sure what the answer is there my my instinct is to want more guys who can do more stuff you know um with the ball and without you know nick batum’s name wasn’t an accident because like they really didn’t have a guy like that on the roster last year maybe streu is the closest parallel there in terms of a switchy Defender that can playmake that can defend that doesn’t really take anything off the table you know a little bit of a streaky shooter but guys still guard him like you know like I don’t know if they had enough Batum on the roster now you can have too many of those guys you know and like I think we’re seeing that a little bit with the Mavericks right now in their series with Boston where it’s like they have like three or four guys who get on the floor that you kind of guard and that can kind of play make but like you know like they’re not able to do it at a high enough level to to hurt a a balanced defense like Boston whereas the Cavs I thought you know at times look better against Boston’s defense so like I don’t know Carter if you have a bad shooting game in a small sample size of a playoff series I think you just got to come to the conclusion that you’re just not built as a playoff performer I just think this Kyrie Irving guy I don’t sure he’s got it two bad shooting games against Boston how how can you ever can I quickly can I quickly aside on Kyrie yes I was driving uh to work to uh the other day and I was thinking it’s kind of interesting that even though this Boston team isn’t nearly as good as that 2016 or 2017 Warriors team it is interesting that even though those Warriors teams were even I think even better defensively than this Boston team they weren’t built to stop Kyrie the way these Boston teams are you know like they had their best option on Kyrie was was an outof position Klay Thompson chasing him around you know they didn’t have straight up guard Defenders like Derek white and Drew holiday are and just just an interesting thing that I was noticing what bit of a party pooper like I know it’s one of the things we don’t like to talk about but Andre Gala having a very bad back in the 2016 finals and being but he was guarding LeBron I don’t care about that they weren’t putting him on that would have been an option that you could have put him on Kyrie in theory but over agree with your point I don’t think they would have I think they needed him on LeBron and like and Harrison Barnes was not going to have the same level of success consistently so like all I’m saying is you know it is an interesting little thing where it’s like I get why K Kyrie’s missing shots but dude Zack low mentioned it on his podcast with Steve Jones uh maybe it was actually with Wendy I can’t remember uh after game two but there was a possession where Kyrie tried to take the ball on transition and he was going to attack he was like I’ve got a chance I’ve got some space and why just stoned him chest to chested him and I was like oh man this is not this is not good so like anyway I also mixes up uh Steve Jones and Wendy from time to time yeah very very similar analysts um but uh yeah I I going back to the fact that like I just you you can overload on Specialists you can overload on generalists I’m not sure exactly where the Cavs balance should be but I do I would like to see a few more options that Trend towards the generalist side yeah and I think it’s interesting too because we can have you know gripes and grievances about you know we’re guys put into too much of a box but I think one of the things and this particularly true this year I think it was true two years ago uh maybe not as much the the year prior uh where we won 50 games the lack of continuity and with guys missing so much time I I just feel like with an NBA team you want to set set up a base of what you’re doing and then build upon that base and I feel like that was just an opportunity that was robbed of them in in this year in particular where if you’re just trying to find stuff that works and you’re just trying to keep your head above water it might just be hey we’re you might have five things that you’re really comfortable doing on the court but we’re just sticking with one and two because we’re down guys you’re tired you’re hurt you’re trying to get comfortable again so we’re going to you know kind of limit the Playbook to some extent so you know I I just in the interest of fairness I I think that that’s a distinct possibility because yeah like when Evan MO is trying to get reintegrated in the offense all you’re not all of a sudden going to be you’re like you’re trying to reestablish what he does well rather than all right let’s kind of spread your wings a little bit and try things out and you know when you’re trying to get Darius Garland back to his regular form you’re not going to play around with as many Isaac Coro developmental reps so you know it is a very tough balance and again it comes back to the push and poll of having a young team that has a lot of expectations in the short term but also has a long-term Vision that you want to have and development has to be part of that priority and that has to be part of that process so it really isn’t an easy thing but I I overall I agree with you I think size that can do stuff is one of my priorities and I think that ties into probably my draft Crush right now uh in not uh having done a lot of research which is a pomi didet I didn’t do a lot of research on how to pronounce his name but 18-year-old French Wing I love this guy uh he’s got the size he’s got a nice fluid compact jumper a good athlete if raw didn’t you know didn’t put up great scoring numbers or anything like that but you can just kind of see the vision you can see the athleticism and you know my concern with him or really anybody that we draft is these guys are going to need to take some time to develop and do we have those developmental reps at our disposal are we going to be able to give that to them is it going to come with the charge like these are all kind of questions that you have to balance yeah I mean I I wanted to ask you because I think we both really over the last week and a half have finally kind of started doing some draft prep uh before we dive in and I have not watched uh did yet just yet but uh I want to ask you what is your just general Takeaway on the draft quality from what you’ve seen uh and your general Vibes hanging at 20 right now I think you’re going to laugh at this but a lot of Specialists a lot of guys that I don’t think are are very multifaceted in terms of what they can bring to the table but guys that can fill kind of individual roles and I think looking at the the talent pool that’s available there’s a lot of compromises you’re going to have to make it in order to bring in a skill said right like a lot of the Wings are 65 66 right kind of in that Isle Coral Max truce range when it comes to height and wingspan and length overall there’s there’s just not a ton that I feel like when I look at the Garden Wing Talent guys I a lot of them seem undersized to me um there’s other options available like you you look at a a Tristan D Silva or Tyler Smith that have a lot of length but I look at kind of their athletic profile and their ability to give juice offensively and self-create and I say no you’re a power forward like I I’m sorry you’re going to have to play at of four even if your body type isn’t uh yet ready for it like I I think offensively that’s where the skill set comes and when I say the skill set I want to add is guys that have some juice they can bring some life to the offense they can bring some pop I want athleticism I want length and I’m I’m not seen a ton of that and I think that’s why someone like thead U is interesting to me yeah I think my general takeaway is one uh this draft is not very good um you know I I I even at the top looking at guys like Ron Holland and I’m you know there’s some stuff that you’re like man would you would you be a top 10 Prospect in a in a stronger draft I’m not sure um you look at you know and I do think even and the other thing is the cchs haven’t picked around 20 in a long time you know like it’s one of those things and we did this when they were at 14 is kind of the range no four 14 is very different than 20 to me man you know being in the Dalton connect kind of range compared to the the the fury Philip Kowski bub Carrington range is like I think there is a pretty solid drop off um as far as I can kind of see um and so it it is an adjustment it’s an adjustment to say like you’re probably like I just don’t I’m not expecting who we’d take at 20 to make the rotation as currently constructed to start the year and I think what you’re looking for is like you have to kind of make a talent play here you have to just I if I’m running the team I am just trusting my Scouts and saying who’s the best guy and unless their fit is just so atrocious that I don’t expect to see a road to them being able to to develop in my organization I’m probably going to take a shot um because yeah I I you look at a guy like you know Johnny Fury who’s probably one of my favorites right now um because I do think he is a proper small forward uh that’s 69 um you know not a lot of self-creation juice but a good off ball cut cutter and uh transition finisher and things like that but like you are making real concessions this is a guy who averaged like one and a half assist per game on the wing you know truly a play finisher if there ever was one right now that is a specialist my guy um and like so like I I think that’s my initial takeaway is I’m just not I I would caution anyone from falling desperately in love there are a lot of drafts where where you find starters in in the 20 range I would be very pleasantly surprised if that were the case I I’m that they find I’m hoping that they find someone in the in the eighth ninth man kind of category with this pick uh and if someone if if they pick someone that makes the rotation I would say that’s a big win for that player yeah and I would say that’s a win if they make the rotation not this upcoming season but the following season like I I think that that would would be a a very good outcome uh for this picky if they do in fact make it if can I can I can yes saying that a little bit yes the other thing would be nice is if they pick someone and they did decide to make a consolidation trade where they go a two for one if if that person is good enough to work their way in if an opportunity arises you know because I do think there’s a difference there um between just supplanting an ex an established ninan rotation and oh they made a two for one and Johnny you’re up like you got to go be our ninth man now are you ready like that I think is a reasonable expectation for this pick um is like someone who shows enough to to be able to get in now if they go Omega project you know with a pick a guy like you know Tyler Smith out of g-league unite who or ignite that I cannot believe is down at 30 in a draft like this I really like him too I can’t I don’t I don’t know what I’m missing uh why a guy that has that physical profile that size that touch um is hanging at The Fringe of the first round on ESPN’s Big Board um but if you take a guy like that like okay I get that you’re probably going to have a little bit of a different curve um but yeah I I it’s going to be interesting you know like it’s going to be interesting to get a sense of like are they just going to take a wing and just be pot committed we’re going to take a three or a four because everyone says we got to get bigger are they going to how wide is their perspective going to get you know uh I think is currently mocking Bob Carrington out of Pittsburgh and I think a lot of fans would be ready to fall out of their chair if the Cavs take a a point guard with their with their only first round pick in the next two years I mean especially as a tyum guy I’m not here for this and and a cpj guy I I love both of those guys but I I think you know I mentioned this on the last podcast but I think in general you have to take best player available um if if if someone that you believe is a tier Above the Rest of the group Falls to you you have to take them like that’s the responsible decision but if it’s a bunch of guys within the same tier you have to draft who you feel most confident has a Runway with your team and you know who you feel most confident in your ability to develop them and to maximize what they have in terms of talent and for me you know I think the biggest openings are small forward and power forward because you need to have a a power forward uh okay with guys like the Silva and Tyler Smith um as much as I like what Dean way can provide you know Health has been a concern durability has been a concern confidence has been a concern if you can find a guy that gives you a little more versati versatility allows you to shift down to playing you know a 3 four there um a Tobias Harris type uh at the power forward position like that’s something that’s attractive to me I’m I’m I’m into that I’m fine using draft capital on that position and then you know looking at the trade market looking at the free agency market to to find that small forward but um you know it’s what do you think about KH wear have you have you dug on him yet not a ton like you know he’s got some you know potential as a shooting big um I don’t I don’t think his position potential is as a shooting big I think I if you look at the if you look at the the mid-range numbers they are really really bad and the free throw Cent is not good either um so I and the three-point volume is not very high but with that said uh Derek Lively had the reputation coming out of high school as like he’s going to be a stretch piig he’s going to be a stretch five and he got to Duke and couldn’t shoot and over this back half the year he was like how about I just dunk I’m a monster I’m a freak how about I just dunk and like I do wonder if that might be we’s future and like you know I here’s my question is are you okay with the Cavs taking a a five at at 20 I uh would prefer not to um in theory I’m okay with it um because as you mentioned like it’s not like they’ve had kind of that consistent backup five I as much as you I’d still like to see Evan Mobley get the majority of those backup five minutes if you’re seeing again I don’t think this person’s going to crack the rotation no matter who it is I think the five funny thing is a five might have a better chance if they just kind of have true size um the one exception being Zack Edy who I just don’t like I’m sorry like it’s I have Canadian bias but this is one of those areas where you know what maybe Canadian big men with the exception of Tristan Thompson I’m just out on because I I was not an Anthony Bennett guy at all um yeah I my my preference would be not to um just because I I think you know I think the replacement value conversations too frequently gets applied to highle players like a Jared Allen when you’re talking about like backup bigs replacement value is easy to find you can find a seven-footer I can go out and I can sign plumbley this offseason for a portion of my mid-level exception and fill that role like you you can you can get a body out there what’s your face I I don’t think they’ve had C your face I don’t think they’ve had an exceptionally good time finding that body hey they did find hard Stein for a little yeah four years ago was fun yeah yeah four years ago uh yeah but again if they I’m just saying it hasn’t been easy and here’s the thing if you’re not 100% sure about the about the Jared Allen EV mob mob pairing long term like it might be worth exploring some different archetypes at the end of your rotation I think if you want to spend resources to bring in a backup five you can do so I don’t think that that’s been high on the priority list I don’t think it’s I’m not saying they should say we’ve got we’ve got to like I don’t think they’ve been trying and striking out I think they just haven’t prioritized adding and backup five I I hear you and I’m not I’m not making the argument that they should I think it’s probably the last position I would want to prioritize but like if their draft room loves wear cuz like he’s like the only guy that I’m seeing in that range where people like yeah he could be a starter someday like he’s got the kind of profile he was an elite High School recruit um and if they believe he’s a tier above the the rest of the group that’s available you do take best player available even if it’s from a trade standpoint because you know if it’s hey we really you know if you draft where and he doesn’t play for the Cavs and let’s say you know that is the perception that hey this can be a someday starter he’s not going to lose value by not playing there are going to be teams out there that say hey we had a high draft grade on this guy we believe that he could be a potential starter he’s buried behind Moy he’s buried behind Allen and we can go out there and he can be part of a trade package that you know just from an asset management standpoint if if that is your belief that he’s a tier above I can understand the argument for it doesn’t it seem like a great tradeback here if you’re the Cleveland Cavaliers because you look at the you look at the guys that are hanging around 20 un mock a lot of them are imperfect fits uh especially like I mean there are guys I like you know I love Fury I don’t like guys like but there are guys I just don’t like for this team I don’t really like d Silva for this team I don’t like Ed for this team I don’t like filipowski for this team I don’t really love khil wear or Isaiah Collier for this team a lot of the a lot of these guys on the big board hanging around 18 to 25 like you know six of them I don’t really want um and then you look near the end of the draft at the end of The Big Board you know guys like didet Tyler Smith um uh not big Bobby Clinton guy from my early review but we’ll see Don Holmes who you know by all reports might have a an promise uh based on the fact he fell out of every uh pulled out of every uh draft workout but there are a lot of guys want to find the homes yeah God uh there are a lot of guys near the end of the the first that I think are interested and for an asset poor team like the Cavs you know you might say none of these guys are great fits but we really like guys near 28 29 might be a really good opportunity and normally I’m not a big proponent of trading down but that’s normally like trading down from like 8 to like 20 I’m not sure it’s as big of a deal dropping for 20 to like 27 or 28 in this draft yeah I think I you know similar to the roster I expect them to evaluate all options uh I saw KOC got very very poorly aggregated where he had a podcast where he was just kind of throwing out hypotheticals and things that he thought and then it was aggregated as a report that the cows are trying to trade up because people are terrible when it comes to aggregation but like even if they’re like I would expect them to be calling teams to see what would it cost a trade up I would expect them to call teams to see what can we gain from an asset standpoint to trade back I would expect them to see what’s available if they were to trade out entirely like you know do you have any do you have any crushes guys that you’re like oh he fell or they went up and grabbed him uh honestly I’ve only been reviewing like the 15 to 30 range on boards like I haven’t looked at any of the lottery talents um so a trade up I would be completely out of my depth and I would embarrass myself so I have absolutely no crushes uh outside of you know reach I got one one tell me Dalton connect a 23y old Prospect is normally not near the top of my what if they fell or what if they went up in gotam rankings but he’s got a weird Journey dude he was like playing like J for two years and then played like at like Northern Kentucky for two years before going to before going to Tennessee and being like the best scorer in the nation like a very weird route an off the like a little struan um but I think with a little extra size got a 69ine Wings span little bit better athlete than Max um a freaking winner uh I don’t know man like that’s my one draft Crush I was like o if they if only if only they were like at 14 or 13 because I don’t think he’s going to go top 10 and if he does it just kind of goes to show you where people feel about this draft but he’s one guy that I’m like ah he would be fun hey if you can see me looking down it’s because I’m Googling I see that he’s Garland’s age interesting yes he is old he’s old as is Tristan D Silva um uh there are some olds in this draft want to know one that’s really really young and is only 18 years old to that to death I got I’m G I’m going literally as soon as we’re done I’m gonna watch that guy because I haven’t seen anything from him yet I am expecting you to message me and and for you to be in because I I think I know you’re typ but I I think I I am I am reli I am I am very defendable you know the people I’m going to love yeah yeah yeah I going back to you know whether it’s free agency whether it’s the draft I think adding versatility adding uh you know reducing the predictability of what we do offensively I think is a real priority um you know i’ like to bring up stats that support my arguments I also think it’s important that you know bringing up data one it doesn’t support the argument one of the things I was going to point out when I look at kind of these staggering lineups um when you look at you know Garland and Moy or or Mitchell and Allen or any other combination of that Levert is like the one that’s in all of these uh cuz obviously he’s basically plays starter minutes coming in off the bench and I was going to bring up the point of hey like you know Garland and Mitchell they’re going to create opportunities for everybody on the court but with with Caris you know he’s a bit of a dump off Merchant he’s going to be looking for the roller as a big and you know what I was wrong he is I I think he’s the classic example of the stats vers eye test when it comes to Caris LeVert because when you look at assist opportunities generated 47% of the assist opportunities he generates are three-point attempts that is higher than Donovan Mitchell at 45% and that’s higher than Darius Garland at 40% Darris Levert be spraying it out there I I feel like maybe that happens more on the perimeter rather than driving kicks I just don’t recall a ton of driving kicks but you know what sometimes the doubt it doesn’t back up what I’m seeing maybe you know bias leaks into everything that we see whether we like it or not positive and negative and and that’s one of those areas where you know what I had maybe a bit of a blind spot I thought Caris got better as a playmaker this year in general um you know I mean and the numbers show it he had uh uh he averaged 6.4 assists per 36 last year was 4.6 um he was I thought in general he had he had a better year passing I think the critique it I think the reason the it test doesn’t line up is I thought Carris was it was at his best this year when the team was playing aimless basketball and he just was decisive uh but it was still kind of on his own schedule you know um uh you know which again highlights the need for structure I think this is a team that just needs structure offensively quicker decision-making um like one of the signature kind of characteristics of that Mitchell and Allen stretch was it felt like the team was playing faster than it was before even though they were playing slower but they were more decisive with with what they were doing and I think some of that you know we mentioned at the time I think that comes down to hey we don’t have other guys like if if Donovan’s kicking me the ball and I have a somewhat open three I’m just going to take this because if I don’t we’re not getting a good look on this possession so you know weird about Caris I know this isn’t a Caris pod pod but you you went there so whatever I’m gonna jump in it’s a Supporting Cast pod is a very important part of that uh the mid-range never got better um he still he still shot 38% from 10 to 16 37% from 3 to 10 way below kind of his career averages there um we uh we we we’re missing out on some mid-range I think there’s I think there’s meat on the bone there’s opportunities in the mid-range I think whether it be darus pulling up whether it’s you know other guys kind of finishing more efficiently there I think adding again reducing the predictability of oh we’re either going to take like we were the ultimate three or team when it it came to field goal attempts like uh that is the Cav shot profile I think making it a little less predictable is going to make the job harder for the defense and you know that’s one of those areas as much as we talk about Darius taking more threes I’d love to see him come come off some of those screens and all right you know I’ve got a shooting pocket here in the mid-range just take them because if you’re dribbling if he’s dribbling in from the three-point line especially because he reduces number of floaters he was throwing this year he’s either going to Loop under the basket and throw a pass and and sometimes you know leave his feet on those opportunities or is going to attempt a layup and that just makes the shot blocking timing and and everything the job of the defender so much easier so you know that’s that’s an area I’d like to see uh him improve in in particular yeah it it’ll be interesting to see again like so much of this is like chicken of the egg how much of it was the system how much of it was the belief in the system how much is that going to change or are they just going to are they just going to you know like or are we going to be like you know if they do run back a very similar roster we’re going to be like uhoh they shouldn’t have done that you know a lot of this is going to be so driven by what they’re running on the on on the court as compared to just changing the Personnel out yeah they’re going to have more data points than we do and you know it’s going to be very very interesting uh thing that they’ve kind of has characterized these last few years is you know a a confidence in what they’re doing internally and not really letting the outside noise impact the decision- making and I think that that has been a real asset with this team uh we will dive into the draft more Carter will give his updated takes on my draft crush on the next podcast big thanks to everyone that tuned in Live on YouTube make sure you guys like And subscribe click the notification Bell so you know when we’re going live if you’re listening via podcast and you want to support us leave us a rating leave a review subscribe unsubscribe resubscribe and help cook those books if you want to be part of the chased down exclusive Discord chat send a screenshot the review to chased down poot gmail.com however you choose to support us we really do appreciate it make sure you guys are staying safe out there until next time go Cavs

Justin and Carter take a look into the latest in the Cavaliers coaching search, discuss how the current role players fit around the core and then dive into their first look at the 2024 NBA Draft!

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Please Note: The opinions expressed by The Chase Down podcast are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of the Cleveland Cavaliers or its Basketball Operations staff, parent company, or partners.