EP. 429 – Championship Parallels w/ Josh Cohen – Orlando Magic Podcast

EP. 429 – Championship Parallels w/ Josh Cohen – Orlando Magic Podcast

this is the sixthman show an Orlando Magic podcast with your hosts Luke Sylvia and Jonathan Osborne covering all things Magic Basketball by fans for fans go [Music] magic what’s going on Orlando Magic fans you guys are back with the six-man show today is June 20th 2024 Jonathan Osborne here as always joined by my co-host Luke Sylvia and later joined by Josh Cohen of orlandomagic.com Luke what is going on man how are we uh good we’re still trying to understand this free agency thing correct uh apparently other teams are too you think they know that they can they can talk to their own guys or they think like they don’t know what they can do or not hopefully the SE yakum deal that broke today gives them a clue oh right we can talk to our guys and super confusing because it would make sense more if like we hadn’t heard anything from the magic yet cuz it’s like oh they’re waiting a few days to do the fronze thing the jallen thing and whatever else but just the fact that it’s been like nobody except seum I thought Twitter was broken until we got the SE yakum thing that we just weren’t getting updates about anybody and nobody’s talking about it like I I haven’t seen like a like a a national writer or whoever really tackle the whole thing of like hey why has it been a couple days and we’ve gotten one peep literal Peep and that’s it and it was like the Pacers in seak if like I don’t care about that so I don’t know I’m trying to Rack my brain with that I know we all are here at the show but yeah that’s that’s really what’s on my mind currently yeah if you’re if you’re not up to speed on what Luke is referring to this year is the first off season where you know the day after the NBA Finals teams can start negotiating with free agents who finished the season on their roster so we thought maybe by this point we would hear you know France Farner Jaylen you know extension stuff maybe resigning you know Marquel folz go baz Gary Harris like any of these guys right and we also thought that we would see that kind of stuff like all over the league and to Luke’s point the Pacers and and seaka agreeing to terms on an extension is literally the only bit of news that has come out over the course of the last two days and yeah I also find it super weird that no one is really talking about why that is like feel like a lot of fans and and Magic fans and us especially had this date kind of highlighted because like okay finals are over we can start hearing free agency news and we’re not hearing anything it makes you wonder if maybe they’re everybody’s waiting for like the official start of free agency to see what dominoes are falling and then sort of what everyone’s options are but a team like the magic who are going to be operating with a ton of cap space like regardless of re you know signing uh bronze or Jaylen to these extensions because remember when it comes to and and extensions don’t kick in right when you sign them like those guys still have another year on their contracts and then the extensions would kick in but you hear every offseason about teams agreeing to resign their own guys guys that they have their bird rights and then when they’re looking to bring in other free agents that if they’re going to be operating over the cap at that point they’ll sign those other free agents first and then they can exceed the cap by resigning their guys you know that they have the bird right so no idea what is going on there um I’m probably just going to Tweet out in a little bit of like hey why is nobody talking about the fact that nothing is happening with free agency and hopefully somebody out there has an idea of what’s going on but we had the we didn’t know what day it was going to be we had a relatively good idea that it was going to be following game four or game five being as you know had the finals went the way that they went and we’re like okay like midnight we’re waiting for the fireworks and then nothing almost nothing has happened other than the seak stuff so that’s pretty interesting Luke apart from that though we haven’t gotten Like official news but there was some juicy stuff that came out today so Evan cider who uh covers the NBA for Forbes today he tweeted out that the magic are now co-favorites with the Warriors to sign glay Klay Thompson per the draftking sports book both teams were at plus 130 up to this point Luke I don’t know that you and I have completely dismissed the idea of Klay Thompson maybe we have maybe we’re going to have people in the comments saying oh what do you mean you guys were talking about this and XYZ now it’s starting to seem like it may be something I’m not to the point where I’m like excited and you know getting hopes up or disappointed prematurely anything like that but one thing that I learned from the Poo banero draft is don’t completely dismiss the odds with Vegas because the day you know days leading up to the draft as the odds started to shift towards pal Bank like oh what’s going on it’s smok screen season so on and so forth and then it turned out to come to fruition this is officially on my radar now Vegas always knows it’s something that I have said several times on the show they know at some point you learn to respect Vegas and they are typically the ones who are if you want kind of a gauge you can go there things started shifting and those Palo ODS for the magic being to draft to the magic started to take shape and little did we know it would come true but this happens all the time with Vegas like they just they know there’s insiders they people are being told things like whatever right so at this juncture what do you believe and I do I do think that it’s very like that not very is that’s too strong of word I think it’s possible that this I think it’s possible that that clays with the Warriors are with the magic come free agency that’s really all I got uh I have no clue blue genuinely because you look back at last year where Klay Thompson has offered a a 2-year extension and he doesn’t take it now granted it was 48 million right so equivalent to 24 a year and he said no but the big thing that came out of it was that he wanted a longer term deal the belief was if they were to offer a longer extension at that time he probably would have taken it so a lot changed for him this past year he takes a bench you know he goes to the bench for some of the games in this year has a lot of you know he was vulnerable saying like it’s hard not being one of the guys anymore and you just have to think what changed if that is the case if clay does sign a a 2-year deal with the magic or a two plus a a third year being like a club option or whatever you got to think was it this past season that really did a in or or and kind of hit reality H him or is he going to want a long-term deal and ultimately I think that will be what makeer breaks the magic if they do want him clearly there’s some interest you talk about wanting shooting and a guy who can play defense I know he got injured and we’ve seen the the setback of that but it’s still Klay Thompson defensively he is still above average and can absolutely help this team in that respect so it’ll be interesting I don’t know what what’s going to happen obviously but if if you can get him on a two plus a a third-year team option then I’d be on board with that but is Klay Thompson want that that’s the big thing I I think it’s less about the money maybe more about the long-term Security in respect of like you think I still have enough in the tank to give you for four good years I want to start by saying I’m not committing to feeling one way or the other but I do want to point out that I’m a grown man and I reserve the right to change my mind and today when I saw that tweet there was a spark I wouldn’t you know it didn’t lead to a flame there was a spark of excitement somewhere deep down in inside of me and I I just sort of Flash Forward in my mind to what we’re talking about you know walking through public and getting that notification that Klay Thompson’s agreed to a deal with the Orlando Magic and just like your mind automatically goes like best case scenario and regardless of like what the terms are at that point like you you get excited and then when you get the terms then you’re just praying that it it turns into the best possible case scenario and someone pointed out today that uh you know last year when the the the terms of the Fred band vet contract came out a lot of rockets fans were freaking out and then you find out that there’s like team options you know built into that which helps you know soften that blow a little bit and then we’re talking in our our six-man show Allan’s group chat earlier and and Sam pointed out like I I can’t even think of the possibility of having someone on this team that is capable of shooting almost 39% on nine attempts per game from behind the ark and that like the idea of that really got me excited ultimately it all comes down to the terms the money the length we’re talking about a guy in Klay Thompson who is going to be 35 years old by next year’s All-Star break like that this is a guy who has you know he has significant injury history since he’s come back you know he’s been you know relatively durable played 69 games uh two years ago played 77 games this past year so he may not be the same athlete that he once was but it seems like you know there’s not this like big like question of oh can he play a lot of games can he play a lot of minutes it seems like he can still do that maybe just not that at the same level as before and just ultimately like for me if the money is right if the the the years are right like we’ve got a lot of money coming up that’s going to be on the books in the the next several years here after next year you’re probably going to have France you’re going to have Jaylen two years from now you’re going to have Paulo’s extension to start to hit the books and you still need to be able to build like a a contending team around those guys at that time and we’re talking you know three years from now potentially Klay Thompson a guy who’s going to be turning 38 years old in that season is he going to be contributing in a way that that really helps push you towards contention at that point probably not so that’s where a lot of people’s concerns with not so much the money but the years that’s where that comes into play because this is a guy who is already up there in years and is this going to put your your foot on the gas a little bit yes but at the same time you don’t want to give up your long-term flexibility and I am going to give Jeff and Anthony you know Parker the the benefit of the doubt here to this point they’ve showed that they are good in these negotiations at at frontloading this making sure that the deals you know in certain aspects are Team friendly that if they need to get out of these deals at some point they will be able to do that and as you’ve made the point time and time again on this show until this front office really Burns us we’re going to continue to trust them and us on the last podcast you know talking about bringing in Klay Thompson Malik monk Tobias Harris like all three of those guys at one point when we were saying hey maybe this isn’t the right time to do that some people question whether or not we trust the front office it’s like hey we’re entitled to our own opinion we’ll talk about whether or not we believe this is the right move to make now but I’ll be honest with you if the front office comes out and says no this is the right move to make right now until we’re proven otherwise I’m going to believe that because I I think they’ve earned that there’s no uh when it comes to trust and Trust in the front office giving your opinion on what you want to happen or what you think should happen doesn’t mean doesn’t negate the trust factor of this the trust comes in once it’s after H after it’s happened and you can just say I’m cool with this because I trust that they’re the direction we’re going right now we don’t know what direction they’re going we have nothing to work with we’d be pulling stuff out of thin air more than we already are if our that which is stupid but yeah so we absolutely trust the front office and there’s no reason not to and uh another interesting tidbit about the Klay Thompson situation so about a couple months ago on the low post uh Zack low said that Klay Thompson and the Warriors both quote unquote took note of Drew holiday’s 4-year $135 million extension that he signed with the Celtics on April 10th I don’t know what the heck that means if we’re being honest I don’t know what that means I don’t know what took note means I don’t know if that means they took note and they’re like oh klay’s going to want that much and Clay was like oh I’m taking note and like I want that much which is like 33 and a half a year so on a four-year deal I don’t know if that’s what that means or if that means Klay is thinking or The Warriors are thinking Klay doesn’t have the value of Drew holiday right now so we can do a little bit less than that there’s a lot of things that a that that taking note could mean I’m sure clay his version of taking note is like oh that’s how much money I should get if Klay Thompson gets signed to 33 and a half million a year on average to the Orlando Magic maybe we do have a conversation about how much I trust the front office but I don’t think that they’re going to do that so that’s going to be an interesting thing because that was just two months ago who knows what’s changed and all of that right I mean clay has done some weird things since then bleeding I believe the picture of him and Steph when they had won the championship holding the trophy or whatever that picture was unfollowing Golden State on Instagram just like stupid but honestly those type of weird things and kind of childish the magic take note of everything this all goes back to character do you sacrif sacrifice a little bit of maybe character and risking some turmoil in the locker room because of a disgruntled Klay Thompson in his old age shaking his fist in the air do you do you trade some of your your chemistry and all that for Klay Thompson in this situation I don’t I don’t think so I don’t think this ront office pulls a trigger on it and to your point don’t get me wrong I could still get excited about Klay Thompson coming in and just hoping that it all goes our way but I just don’t know I don’t know there is so much stuff out there there’s so much context needed in this Klay Thompson talk when you talk about them taking note of that Drew holiday deal when you talk about how kind of toxic Klay Thompson seemed this past season and grumpy and all the other things that have come with that story and that the the $48 million extension that he declined last summer there is so much around Klay Thompson it’s impossible to put the pieces together and I I just don’t know where we go besides from just sitting back continuing to just Ponder everything and trust that this run off is going to pull the trigger in the right direction come for agency I will say this is a move that you cannot make unless Klay Thompson is 100% bought in to this team and what his role is going to be here yeah right like if he comes to the point where it’s not working out in negotiates with golden state and he’s looking to move elsewhere he’s got to sort of turn that that New Leaf he can’t be you know the the bitter clay that we’ve seen the last couple of years you know he’s got to go into his next situation with sort of that new lease on life perspective and just try to make the best of his current reality yes it sucks that you suffer those injuries and your Prime was cut super short but this is the reality now and you can either continue to dwell on on the past or you can make the best of your current situation and I do think the magic only make that kind of a deal if they feel like Klay Thompson is 100% bought in to what is going on here in Orlando and if it comes out to be that Klay Thompson is getting paid 33 or 30 $34 Million by the Orlando Magic I’ll stick to this right now I do think that would be a mistake unless they have some you know if it’s a one plus one which I don’t think he’s going to do um or if they’re just you know gon to lean into the next couple of years sort of kick that cap space down the road to a certain extent if they maybe don’t think they’re going to use the entirety of that um and that way you still maintain that long-term flexibility and this is a move that helps you win a bit more over the course of the last two years and then you’re leaning on internal development we still don’t know what their plan is with a Anthony black with a jet Howard and so forth so um but if it comes out that they sign this guy to a fouryear $135 million deal something like that I’ll come right out and say this is this is not a good idea and I would love for them to prove me wrong I don’t think that’s going to happen with clay and Orlando especially but my ears are definitely perked up quite a bit more than they were even 24 hours ago with this uh news because like you said Vegas always knows something right okay let’s go ahead give a quick word from our patrons before we get to our conversation with Josh Cohen our patreon those are the folks that help make each and every episode possible they help financially support us help pay for equipment and resources and really everything that we do here if you’ve been listening for a little bit or a long time and you want to help financially support the show or hey maybe you just want to pay um you know $5 a month and get access to our Discord Channel where we have like 70 80 magic fans that are talking about this team 247 um you can do that by going to patreon.com the6 man show whenever we have a brand new Patron we give them a special shout out each and every episode so shout out to our 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stano 1995 Suggs mugs Daniel Anderson Mel KY will Spivey a big thank you to all of our patrons again you can join our patreon at patreon.com the6 man show and now into our conversation with Orlando magic.com Josh Cohen and now magic fans we are joined by a very special guest Orlando magic.com Josh Cohen a writer and digital content manager for the Orlando Magic Josh uh how have you been how has this past season to you been great uh past season obviously ly was pretty awesome you know nice making the playoffs would have been great if they had pulled out that game seven but otherwise it was a memorable season on a lot of different levels but I think it’s all you know coming to fruition for the most part obviously there’s still work to do still a lot to be desired for but where the team is at right now I don’t think we can ask for much more based on the Youth of the team the experience level and all those things so I feel like it’s only up from here hopefully of course Josh I wanted to ask you you know as we’re recording this the Celtics you clinched the title just a couple of days ago the last time that we talked to you you know you were talking about um the evolution of like playmaking wings and their importance you know in the league and their influence on the league and the last you know decade or so um you’ve sort of seen like the archetype of the title winners change whether like the Golden State Warriors with you know small ball and and spacing and then uh you know the Lakers and the Raptor with like two-way playmaking wings and then the Nuggets obviously like the playmaking big and joic and then I think the last time that we talked is as we were talking about poo B Caro and fron Vagner you know being these type of jumbo playmaking versatile Wings you know Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown were were two of the um examples that you gave when when talking about that so I just wanted to ask with the Celtics winning the the title this year um what is your like overall perspective on like these past playoffs and sort of like what wins in today’s NBA yeah like you pointed out there’s always like the evolution of the NBA we’ve seen it decade after decade of course you go back in time the showtime Lakers had their style playing in transition fast-paced basketball of course there was a lot of hard-nosed basketball in that era as well with the Pistons and the Celtics and then Jordan’s Bulls kind of took over with their style but remember Chicago in that era were also a stifling defensive team everybody remembers Jordan’s a fism but he was just as good of a Defender and they had other guys on the wing especially with Scotti Pippen Ron Harper in the second s of that Bulls uh second repeat so they had versatile players even though we weren’t calling it versatility back then but they had plenty of it Dennis Rodney can guard all five positions so people always forget just how smothering they were defensively in different ways and no team really could match that so then you you know you you move on to other teams throughout the 2000s the the Pistons in 2004 could guard multiple positions uh and and team after team that we’ve seen win at all uh the thing in common for the most part was they were Collective defensively they had versatility they had some sort of jumbo uh lineups that can guard on the perimeter and also into the paint and we saw that with Boston for the most part you know they can they switch everything right they’ve been know they’ve been doing that since Brad Stevens basically e adoka obviously implemented even more of it and now Missoula did the same in their own style and defensively they were just as good as any body in the league you know they ranked in the top two on that end and uh the ability to guard in different situations in space in the paint helps side so forth and so on just made them so lethal and then offensively uh their kickout passing the thing that Jaylen Brown and and and Jason Tatum do so well is they have an amazing ability to drive into the paint get past their initial Defender with all the shooter space around them their kickout passing was superb they did it all season long but even better was that even when they made the the first kick out there would be the the the next Passover you know you’d have so many you know hockey assists uh with the Celtics because they were so smart they were C cerebral and they just made the right play every time and we saw it throughout the playoffs certainly against the Mavs and the finals so yeah like you emphasized the jumbo playmaking of Tatum uh he in his first couple years to me the Celtics didn’t win the title earlier because Tatum’s playmaking needed to rise to another level and in the last year year and a half it did I mean people criticized him for his efficiency not being what you would expect of a superstar but you could argue he’s a top 10 playmaker in the league at 6 foot eight 6 foot n and um which is why he was flirting with triple doubles regularly I really thought in the finals that was the best Tatum I’d ever seen so I know he wasn’t necessarily shooting the ball at that elite clip um I thought he should have been finals MVP even though Jaylen Brown was awesome as well mainly from an efficiency standpoint but Tatum was spectacular and I know he got some you know I mean yes I don’t he’s not a great pull-up jump shooter I mean we’ve seen it through the years like the data shows it his s side step three-point shot has never been efficient uh but the way he sees the floor uh the vision the instincts his size the ability to see over defenders Blow by Blow by Defenders regularly so he’s got that quick first step and then he’s just really smart when he gets into the paint he knows exactly where his teammates are he could dribble around guys dribble through draw contact he’s great at initiating contact so uh no surprise they were the best team all season and they deserve to win the title for sure do you think that Tatum you know like Jonathan said the last time that you were on we talked youal you made that comparison right at this juncture would you say that you believe that fron and Pao are just similar in terms of just the the simple facts of they’re the top two options and they you know can facilitate their size or would you say that that the roof or the ceiling for these guys is is similar to a Tatum Brown combo I think Pao is similar to Tatum in from the standpoint of jumbo playmaking as we already described with Tatum I also think the dribble combinations the movements are similar I think Tatum does have a quicker First Step which allows him to get past his initial Defender at a much High much higher rate than Pao at least at this point I think Pao is much better playing Bully ball so when he can take his man maybe into the post or just get deeper position he’s a load we know his size uh he’s got greater size in terms of you know muscle than than Tatum just based on stature based on physicality uh ta Tatum is much craftier much more creative when he gets into the paint because he can kind of swerve around Defenders pao’s more just about kind of getting up there with his body and using his size and drawing contact that way uh finishing I think Tatum’s a little bit better of a finisher at this point but he’s OB obviously more advanced in his career than Pao but Pao is getting better at that if you look at his you know his rain shooting from each like zero to three feet 3 to 10 feet Etc he was better in his second year than his first except for I believe 10 to 16 feet 10 to 16 feet was where he dropped a little bit but every other range he improved which is why his overall field goal percentage was better in year two than year one I think his first year he was at 42% his second year at 45% of course you know about the three ball going from 29 to about 34 uh so and he had he had games where he looked like he was lights out from three uh his catch and shoot his catch and shoot shooting was better uh so he doesn’t Shoot Many from the corners obviously but his his Corner three-point percentage did drop a little bit but he doesn’t take very many of those for obvious reasons because he’s playing in the middle of the floor most of the time so uh Paulo does have similarities to Tatum but I do think Tatum’s you know experience maybe a little bit more speed uh but I do think trajectory wise we could poo take that next step like Tatum did a couple years ago so we’ll see how that unfolds and then if you’re comparing like like fron and Jaylen Brown are very different I mean just completely different players I mean fron is like a manager nobly type that we know about the driving ability the footwork the craftiness getting to the basket the swerving around Defenders uh Brown is a much more efficient score he can play in the mid-range if he has to although Boston almost never plays in the mid-range uh I I’m a full believer in the analytics mid-range keep it at to minimum uh there’s no reason to play in the mid-range in today’s NBA it’s either at the basket three-point line or Draw fouls I mean to me it’s not to me it’s not rocket science I I I’m surprised when people say just if you have an open mid-range jumper take it I’m unless you’re deep into the shot clock I would say keep being patient see if you can get something better that’s just my opinion um and the Celtics take very few mid-range but obviously when they do Jaylen Brown is their go-to guy in those circumstances but Jaylen Brown’s first step I think his Blow by percentage this year I think was top 10 in the league and it’s been that way for the last few years he’s an underrated athlete just because his speed is so much better than he gets credit for but he just became such an efficient jump shooter off the catch off the dribble um you he doesn’t draw fouls like like Tatum does and his playmaking isn’t anywhere close to Tatum but um to me Jaylen Brown just became this Ultra efficient smooth crafty and and fast player that allows him to kind of create space and get to the basket fron on the other hand is relies much more exclusively on craftiness and creativity uh the footwork is unreal I think manag J nobly at 6’10 is Fran’s best comp that’s how I felt since the beginning since France came into the league but um but the playmaking with France is getting better too and I thought I thought we saw flashes of it throughout the season uh that’s why I thought hio turkalo was another good comp for him because turkalo was an elite playmaker at 6 fo10 and I always felt like the two shared some similarities in that way and I think we saw a little bit of that throughout the year I mean we know about Fran’s jump shooting that’s got to improve uh that was a surprising drop off but other than that I thought fron was even better than I expected in year three um his defense was superb and I don’t feel like he always gets enough credit for that um you know amongst the entire team top two defensive rating when they were on the floor were Jonathan Isaac and fron vogner you know no discredit to the other guys on the team who were all great you know Jaylen sugs obviously made an old defensive team but Isaac and fron pound-for-pound statistically we’re probably the team’s top two Defenders when Anthony black played you can throw him in there as well but um yeah I mean I I don’t want to compare the the the Celtics Duo and the magic Duo but they do have some of the same qualities we’ll say uh and obviously because of an age from an age perspective you expect them to continue to elevate their games even more going forward I think it’s super interest sorry Jonathan I was just going to tag on on that when you were talking about you know Tatum finishing at the rim and and you know being you better more efficient in that area than Pao to this point better around the room in that area I went back and looked at B bucket list. fans which um Josh if you’ve I’m not sure if you’ve seen it if that’s something you you’ve seen at this point but it’s like uh it’s essentially just shot charts and you can specify the type of action the where they were at all that stuff right um and at Tatum second year now context is necessary Tatum second year in the league uh Kyrie was the number one option for Boston right but the interesting part is that of course Pao this year in his second year shot more there was a higher volume but Pao shot better efficiency wise than Tatum did year two and it’s just super encouraging because we’ve seen the jump that Tatum has taken even around the rim right so that’s been super interesting to see but also just encouraging for magic fans of like H was you know was able to um do better things in year 2 than Tatum with a big responsibility he shot more so everything says he should shoot a worse percentage by just numbers right so super encouraging on that end but I just wanted to add context there that was one thing that I kind of just honed in on while you said it and wanted to look it up but um yeah that that’s I think it’s super interesting to compare the two and continue to see that trajectory because they are very different but it’s awesome if you were wanting to maybe go tip fortat with the with the du of Boston and that trajectory it’s good to keep tabs like that and I was going to point out you know not to continue to make the comparisons to to Boston but when you look at Tatum and brown year two and year three versus Pao and France year two and year three a lot of the numbers you know favor Paulo and fron especially the playmaking like the the at least you know the raw assist per game you know Paulo and fron both have the advantage there I know there’s a lot of context missing from that but Josh I wanted to ask you you know there there are parallels you know that’s why you see that comparison a lot between pal and fron and Jason and and Jaylen have those two you know the the ups and downs you know the adversity that they’ve faced and and ultimately got through and and made it over the hump and won a title has that you know changed your opinion or made you more confident in in perhaps Pao and Fran’s ability uh to win a title together someday yeah I mean it always gives you confidence when players that play similar positions and maybe like we discussed before some similar styles are proving that they can lead a team to a championship I think what Boston did over time was they figured out I I don’t I’ll just say this there was never in my opinion anyway this idea that Tatum and brown together couldn’t win a championship like I think there were some people who started wondering like starting last year whether they were ever ever able to do it and uh when they lost to Miami last year people were like should they split them up and you everybody’s got their own opinion about that but I I think it would be extreme to suggest that the two of them together were never going to be able to win a championship if they stayed together obviously that’s been proven now that they can but more so than that I think The Supporting Cast that you know Brad Stevens built around them too was just phenomenal I mean getting porzingis to me was was huge uh and just that Derek white Drew holiday back cour and you’re talking about two of the best you know perimeter defenders in the league U we see it with the magic too and I think that’s what’s also really promising is there’s some similarities there with jayen Suggs Anthony black and I just think there are there are parallels I don’t think there’s any question about it um we’ll just see as time evolves whether more experience will catapult them into that level uh we know about the need for more shooting with the magic which I’m sure we’ll discuss more in this this podcast but uh yeah I I would say if nothing else it is encouraging that a team that has a similar makeup um Prides themselves on the defensive end and does have those two Jumbo playmaking style players uh were able to prove that they can win together and uh you know cuz you know there’s always going to be some criticism some talk that there should be guys split up like two stars together whether they have the right chemistry whether they mesh well together sometimes it just takes time to get to that upper tier level but I mean you know the funny thing with the Celtics I mean Jaylen Brown was in the Conference Finals his rookie year now he didn’t play much that year but Jason Tatum was a major player on a Conference Finals team his rookie year they went to game seven against Cleveland that year without Kyrie without Gordon Hayward I mean they got off to such a great start maybe the East the way the East was at that time it was LeBron and then everybody else and Boston just had the right style of play and maybe that’s what catapulted them to those situations but I mean Boston’s been knocking on the door really since they since since the moment Jaylen Brown and Jason Tatum arrived so obviously the magic aren’t quite at that level but uh it is very optimistic based on what they did that the magic maybe could follow SU and obviously you got to make the playoffs to get there to where the Celtics got this year the magic do that and as we know they they take the Cleveland Cavaliers to seven Josh what was your your takeaway from that series and maybe aside from Paulo who would you give the the magic MVP to in that Series yeah the contrast between home and away was crazy because I mean we all know that home Advantage is a big deal in the playoffs big deal in the regular season to but more so in the playoffs although it varies from series to series me look at that Minnesota Denver series home court didn’t seem to matter all that much in that series and those are I mean Denver’s a great home court advantage so uh it was surprising for Minnesota to walk in there and win you know three out of those four games that they played there but um you know the the the disparity between home and away was like it was like literally for both sides it was watch watching two different teams like Cleveland was a totally different team and they building versus ours and vice versa and that was that was extreme I mean I remember talking after game four I’m like did we is this the same series and the same two teams that played in clevel it just didn’t even make sense it was that extreme completely on opposite ends um so you know the three-point shooting disparity really was and this this this was maybe a microcosm of what happened during the regular season because the Magic in stretches now they never took a lot of Threes but there were games and and stretches of time where their three-point percentage was top 10 in the league and guys that you don’t normally consider to be you know top-notch three-point shooters were knocking them down in those stretches and we saw it in this Playoff Series games three four and six you know maybe outside of those first what three minutes of game three when they were like one for 10 or whatever from the field I mean they were they were almost lights out the rest of those uh minutes in those three games and then of course in the four games in Cleveland I mean it was just couldn’t buy a bucket so um again that that’s what I really took away from the series I think everyone would agree that if the magic at homecourt Advantage they probably win the series it just based on the way the series was going there’s no guarantee to that but it just felt like that was the the difference um but as far as like outside of Pao who who really stepped up their game you know I just thought defensively in the home games especially like I don’t think Wendell Carter got enough credit for what he did and he’s a very underrated Defender I always feel like the way he moves his feet on the perimeter he’s a big body he can really handle his own in the paint now I know Jared Allen you know missed most of the series because of his injury uh well at least missed the last three games but I I I really thought Wendell played above expectations based on where he kind of was finishing the regular season so he’s one guy to keep in mind the home games Jaylen Suggs was terrific uh we know we know all about that and so was France so you know again I think you can like the home games it’s almost like the the entire roster you can kind of applaud and then you know outside of Pao there really wasn’t too much in those Road games um you know I they great they gave a great effort in games five and even seven even though they they’re up 18 in game seven you know you always think you have that on lock but Donovan Mitchell kind of kind of sees control there in that second half but um but yeah it’s tough to name one guy after Pao but I like I lik Wendell’s defense Jaylen Suggs in those home games fron in the home games those are the guys I guess that really pop out to me did you learn anything about Pao from that series well he was up for the challenge I mean especially for a second-year player 21 years old uh he definitely exceeded my expectations I mean you know the first two games the turnovers were problematic I think there was even talk after game one like he’s just not ready like this is you know too too big of a stage at this particular juncture for him based on his experience but then you know maybe by the the the second half of game two you really started to feel it like he belongs number one he’s going toe-to-toe you know I know Mitchell had an amazing game six and game seven but I mean you could argue that you know it was neck and neck of who the best player in the series was between those two um and we know that Po’s a better Defender bigger you know stronger and all that so I’m not comparing the two I’m just saying like if you’re like who who was the MVP of the series obviously it’s Mitchell but Pao was right there I mean obviously if the magic had won the series he would have been Nam the the quote unquote MVP of the series but uh yeah he was he was phenomenal and I think gave everyone the insur assurance that he really theoretically down the road could be uh the number one option on a title contending team I think we all got that feeling now which maybe before the series we weren’t so sure about now as far as you talk about like the talk after game one Pao may not be ready and that like that was irresponsible but like that that whole thing was ridiculous right and I think we all agree to that but the other thing that was struck me really funny was the game seven fron vogner game where everyone not everyone a lot of people were ready to pull the pitchforks on fron vogner he shouldn’t get the max the rookie Max he doesn’t deserve this or that what was your your takeaway I think I know what your answer is going to be but I’m sure you’ll provide more for us on this but what was your takeaway from the fron Vagner game s performance and you know everything else that comes with with fron as a player I mean we could just look at the most recent series of the NBA the finals right Luca donic you know still puts up amazing numbers people kept criticizing the defense through the first three games and then in game five people just started pointing to like he’s not capable of leading a team and you know higher upscale games or whatever you want to call it uh which obviously is ludicrous and I I I definitely am not the person to zoom in on one game one performance and say that’s it I think that would be crazy for anyone to do that I know in today’s world with the way social media is everybody’s very like you know what have you done for me lately which is which is understandable especially in the playoffs but um the thing still I mean even even in game seven uh and it shows in the data his defense was still fantastic I mean every step of the way I never felt like he took his foot off the gas pedal in any way and even though shots weren’t falling and that was a problem for most of the team in those Road games like we talked about before I never felt like he himself was discouraged and you know he has all the confidence in the world he’s going to continue to take shots even when he’s off on a given night and it showed in game seven you know to take that many shots not be concerned about what his stats were going to be I think that’s actually really encouraging going forward uh and to me says a lot about his makeup you know mentally he’s not going to be worn down by a bad performance and uh I I also think maybe we hope anyway that that performance could actually catapult him even more so going forward because now he’s extra motivated you know I’m sure he hears the noise and the criticism and all that and now he wants to prove and he’s going to probably prove it in the Olympics uh whether Germany can win the win the the gold is is another story especially with USA throwing out that lineup or that roster out there but uh we know what he’s capable of in in in games that obviously mean a lot and so as he gains more experience I have no doubt that he’ll step up even more um you know whether he’s a number two option or or whatever you know who knows how this team will look going forward but regardless you know that he will deliver uh in in one way or another in a in a massive game and defensively I thought he was just as good in in the playoffs as he was in the regular season shifting gears a little bit here Josh as we’re recording we’re just seven days out from the NBA draft the magic as of right now hold the 18th pick as our good mutual friend Dan Savage always reminds me there’s no one in the world that watches more basketball than Josh Cohen and this is NBA college basketball International like whatever this guy can get his hands on uh are there any you know prospects in that you know Post Lottery range like which of those prospects are the most intriguing to you this year yeah there’s a lot that I’ve had my eye on the last couple months now not necessarily at number 18 which we just don’t know who’s going to be available and who isn’t but just some names that really come to mind I mean I really like kaon George out of Miami you know he was kind of a sleeper guy for a long time nobody really talked about him during the college season much until like the last Maybe quarter of the Season he’s originally from Switzerland his dad played professionally over there but uh his he’s got he’s a classic like point forward guy like his shooting is what stood out most in college but at 6 fo8 with his vision you can tell like he’s capable of running an offense if you need him to like he can orchestrate uh he could take the he could he could take his man off the dribble and then he surveys the floor really well you know like I don’t think he’s ever going to be in in an Electrify score but I do think catch and shoot he can do that on a very general level I think his three-point shooting and catch and shoot was one of the best in the ACC and then you have his his playmaking uh I think continued to get better and better as the season went on I I think his size gives him a major advantage uh we’ll see if uh Nia topic drops I know the the ACL injury is something that people have been monitoring and trying to determine whether he’ll fall out of the lottery or not if he does I’ve been impressed with what I’ve seen now obviously overseas it’s it’s a little different the style of play out in Serbia is different but his craftiness when he gets into the paint he can make shots from different angles now he’s very right-hand dominant but it seems to me like even when he just goes right hand there’s like no stopping the shot he just has this weird way of making very awkward looking shots uh we see that with certain guys uh in the league I don’t know I’ve seen some comparisons to Josh giddy um but I just think he provides a little bit more creativity from a scoring standpoint than giddy does I think the passing is similar which is why he’s been kind of labeled a little bit like a giddy type player but um uh he’s probably the best pure passer in the draft just based on what we saw overseas so that always is a plus but there are concerns clearly about the shooting in the defense which actually I think is the case for a lot of those guys that are kind of falling back a little bit like Rob Dillingham I know he’s been getting a lot of talk lately about maybe dropping out of the top or falling out of the top 10 depending on what teams are looking for I mean you’re talking about pure speed uh just an incredible ability to get to the basket so much burst and his shooting up like the thing that really popped out to me with him you don’t see this much his shooting off the bounce from three was superb I mean most guys don’t shoot High percentages off the dribble from three and he was he was doing it at a pretty high clip so that was impressive to me uh his ability and transition and all that uh I just think his speed now I know he’s gotten some of that Maxi comparison I I feel like he’s a little bit more emanu quickly but that’s just me um I’m not really sure what he’ll fall in that line but I I think there’s some similarities to both of them uh I’ve seen Isaiah ker drop a little bit now I know he’s small uh but he also is just really quick really really um powerful he reminds me of Eric bledo that’s that’s a comp that comes to mind just his strength at his size I know he’s only 6′ one but he’s built really well almost like a like a fullback or a linebacker or something he just seems like he’s really Stout in that way so he’s somewhat to keep an eye on um I like wear from Indiana you know it’s weird like he was completely off off the radar at Oregon because that’s where he played his his freshman year and then he goes to Indiana and uh I’m not I’m not saying he’s he’s Wy or anything like that but when he was engaged in the game it almost had a little bit of that Wy feel like he’s he’s not as tall as wemi I’m again I’m not comparing him at all to wemi but just like some of those movements like the odd awkward kind of shiftiness that he has at his size I thought was unique um so he’s someone that kind of popped out to me uh his he improved his three-point shooting as a seven-footer I think he was he was uh 17 of 40 from three and I think his his freshman year he went like 15 or 55 something like that so he clearly went up in percentage um so I think even just from a catch and shoot standpoint he’s capable uh but he also can like handle the ball in transition which is again unique um for someone his size those are some guys that that pop out to me um that I’ve just been kind of monitoring but like it’s anyone’s guess the thing about the draft as we all know like at the end of the day when it’s all said and done five years from now six years from now they’ll be just you know they’ll be between five and seven guys throughout the entire draft that we’re going to look at and say these were the guys like wherever they were picked it could be and I always tell people this it’s like one year it could be picks 3 10 20 28 34 the next year it could be 1 eight 18 26 47 right I’m saying 47 for obvious reasons too because that’s the magic second round pick but like you just don’t know from year to year but usually it’s like between five and seven where you’re like those were thep the top guys and it doesn’t mean that they were all in the lottery it’s a range it just you never know and we all know the stories of guys that were picked late in the first round that went on and became you know Superstar players uh some of the best guys in the league right now you know were picked late in the first round or mid first round so uh it’s exciting and but those were just a few guys that that came to mind last year’s draft saw the magic take two guys in the lottery Anthony black jet Howard Anthony black you know we saw a decent amount especially when guys were in and out of the lineup jet Howard was almost you know exclusively playing in in the G League um some magic fans talk like hey like jet Howard potentially could be our our rookie this year and maybe we don’t use that pick at 18 just what have you seen from Anthony black and and Jet Howard and what you’ve seen out of them and and and what do you look for with those guys in year two yeah sure I I think starting with with Anthony his body is gonna fill out more I think that’s what some people might forget a little bit I he’s the one thing I noticed when I first saw him uh like up somewhat up close I was almost amazed how tall he was like I I I saw it was listed at 67 but for some reason in my head I like yeah he’s 67 but he’s probably more like 6’5 you know how they they always like listed higher I I was like is he actually more like 68 like six he just seemed so much taller to me the first time I saw him and then obviously you know he didn’t have much you know WID on his body I feel like when he gets in the gym I I just have a I just have a feeling he’s going to really start to bul up a little bit I don’t know what the you know the training staff want wants of him as far as his size but um if he just gets more strength and more power in his body that’s going to allow him to be even more difficult to deal with especially you know when he’s defending uh because he already can guard ones and twos at a really high level I think the times where he struggled a little bit was when guys kind of took him down low a little bit but again that’ll improve over time as his body fills out and I just think he has the ability to potentially guard you know one through four when all is said and done um I’m I’m very encouraged by that um with his with his complete physical makeup um the three-point shooting was better than expected you know 39 and a half% for a guy that’s not known for being a shooter um I thought was pretty good um his uh I thought I thought it did tail off a little bit but he wasn’t getting as much playing time you know in that second half of the year so that might have thrown it off a little bit but we we all saw the numbers in the first quarter of the year when he replaced Marquel FZ because of the injury uh you know his shooting numbers were actually far better than anticipated the thing with him that we still don’t know is what his touch can be when he’s self-creating when I watched him at Arkansas I I thought I I thought I saw someone that had that ability um we we know he’s Shifty like he’s got some interesting movements he’s not fast we know that he doesn’t burst by anybody but he’s got some of that like Herky jerky movement stuff that can throw Defenders off but you know his rookie year he just struggled to make shots from almost any spot on the floor when he self created um now he didn’t have to do it much you know because you got Pao and France right that’s what kind of gives him a pass a little bit it’s like you may not need him to do that so it may not matter ultimately if he’s an elite Defender a good catch and shoot three-point shooter maybe in the end even if he doesn’t advance that much as a pick and roll score or an isolation score or dribble handoffs whatever the case may be maybe in the end it’s not that impactful I just think that there’s something there I just don’t know if it’ll ever come out and maybe the issue will be touch like he just doesn’t have that feathery soft touch that some guys have um he just moves in a way where you’re like he can kind of get where he wants to go through those Shifty movements without the speed but he just struggled finishing um I think as a pick and roll score he shot like 29% which obviously is low but he didn’t get too many opportuni either so maybe that’s part of it but I I’m a huge fan um I think if nothing else he’s got all defensive team kind of written all over him we saw it with Jaylen Suggs obviously this past year um but you know Anthony black brings more size he can guard even you know deeper into the lineup I think and you know I think I think Suggs is a better Ball Hawk I think he’s better pressuring the ball up the floor I think he’s got a little bit better instincts and anticipation to come up with like Steals and deflections but I think Anthony’s pure size that that if he once he fills out I think his strength could actually be a huge Advantage for him uh and then yeah Jed Howard obviously was in the you know the G League uh most of the year and you know he’s one of the best you know catch and shoot three-point Shooters in the G league so just that alone is very promising we know that the magic need that above probably all else at this point so I I think that alone is promising um I think that at this juncture even if that’s all he if that’s all is it’s just a guy who spaces the floor spots up Corners Wings he’s right there for pao and France for the kickout passes um the skip passes transition threes that’s another thing you know he didn’t take too many of them with aola but he likes running the floor you can kind of see he likes getting out and running and you know I think we could see a scenario where following Steals and and deflections and all that he’s racing ahead spotting up and right there to shoot right off the catch and I think he’ll be really efficient at that and his size also gives him some defensive advantages and I think underrated about him is his playmaking um you know he’s he’s a vastly underrated um facilitator I mean he did a little bit of that with with aola and obviously won’t be in a major role with Orlando but I think in a second unit situation we might see him handling the ball more and uh creating a little bit for others I think he’s capable of it do you think regardless of what happens with free agency uh coming out up soon that there is a realistic world where Anthony black and Jet Howard both log barely significant minutes per game like 14 minutes 15 minutes a game at the least yeah I mean it’s so blurry right now because we just don’t know what the roster is fully going to look like by the time you know training camp starts and it’s just too preliminary to think about like what what the lineups will be but I think just based on their skills based on their potential based on where they can fit in with this group as currently constructed there’s no doubt in my mind that with more experience more seasoning uh they’ll both have a major role uh with the team and you know there was no expectation for jet to get major minutes with Orlando this year it was you know designed for him to primarily be with aiola but at some point we will see him get an advanced you know opportunity with Orlando and I just think like what he brings to the table could be as we all know extremely useful for what the magic need with the spacing and you know the corner three-point shooting and then a little bit of playmaking here and there if they needed in like the second unit or something like that that’s that’s what I envisioned for him Josh this is the first uh offseason really where uh following you know the the day after the finals teams are able to start negotiating with their own free agents and you know this has not been maybe as loud as some people thought it would be early on and uh as we are now uh we’re just about a week and a half away from the official start of uh free agency where teams can you know start negotiating with you know all free agents um what do you think are are some of the things that the magic are going to try to focus and improve on potentially through free agency yeah tough to say I mean obviously shooting is something that I think we’ve all addressed as a need to some extent anyway now you you could talk about internal growth shooting wise I think some of these guys will improve their numbers we’ve already talked about some of them but uh it would always be beneficial if there’s somebody available that not only brings shooting though but also brings size the thing the thing that the tough spot here and I always I always feel this way with shooting most times the best Shooters are also like the worst Defenders like we’ve seen this throughout NBA history it just seems time and time again I want I don’t want to mention names with you know guys throughout league history that were just like Elite Shooters but were taken off the floor in big moments because they couldn’t guard anybody um and it’s it’s one of those things where you got I I personally think a team needs to be really careful not over zooming on shooting because anybody who can’t guard at least one position let alone like two maybe even three they’re not going to be able to play major minutes in playoff games like we’ve seen it you know I think we all know certain guys that were like that and they’re not even whether they’re still in the league or not like they’re not getting major time in big games um which is another reason why I think Boston was just genius because they found guys that could shoot really well but also play defense at a really high level like that’s rare and they they found a way to do it um like everybody thinks of pton Pritchard like is kind of like a score like a small scoring guard he has his his uh his defensive numbers specifically defensive Blow by percentage was like top five in the league uh he is an incredibly underrated Defender maybe Sam Hower is the only one that’s not like an elite Defender but like um I looked at something with him recently you know he most of his shots were from three but like because of the playmaking around him like a good as good of a shooter as he is to get that wide open so many times is just unheard of right so maybe you can get away with a guy like that not being an elite Defender but um so so shooting clearly is a need but not at the expense of Defense defense still has to be the calling card it still has to be the thing they hang their head on and so it’s a slippery slope and I think we all have our opinions about that but if we if there’s a way to get a guy shoots it really well but also defends that’s that’s ideal um and and yeah I I still think like a lob threat would be nice I mean Wendell in situations you know can can can do that um you want spacers around like Pao and France but you also want guys that can catch Ali oops and finish right at The Rim uh we see that with certain teams do that we saw it with Dallas particularly right with g and Lively uh when you have Luca who’s drawing so much attention Kyrie as well like it’s perfect when you have a lob threat um plays in the dunker spot or on the roll and it’s just a constant finish um so that’s another thing I could see maybe like that could be an advantage if there’s a if there’s a guy out there that can help in that area um that might also help Pao and fron in the long run Josh the the floor of this team feels like it’s been set and and really at this point it looks like it’s playoffs or or or bust for this team at this point of what they should achieve right and we all know the health part barring injury that’s what we expect we expect this team to make playoffs for a while now going into this next season how are you handling expectation are you waiting until free agency or are you kind of like you know there there’s just no way this team can miss the playoffs they’ve did what they did this past season where are you at as far as expectation heading into next season maybe the lowest expectation that you could have yeah it’s a great question I mean like you said at the top I I I think it’s all fair to say that it would be important to see what the team exactly looks like by the time we reach you know media day training camp I know that’s the easy way out of of that question in a sense but um we all know too the Eastern Conference based on the way it was looking this year I know injuries played a big factor in this but the East has has like this I’m not going to say it’s like cruise control or like a fast lane type of thing but it just feels like there’s a pathway there to get right into the mix without too much interference you got Boston and they’re still going to be obviously really really good Pro you know clearly the favorites to win again next year although you know who knows things change but who else like give me another team that you’re like I’m so scared of you know I know Indiana beat New York but New York healthy was probably better than Indiana I mean that’s debatable of course because the Pacers did win the series but all the injures to to New York you know we don’t really know what they would have looked like if everything was equal I mean again no disrespect to these teams it’s just am I scared by them I think we’re all you know I think we would all probably agree that it doesn’t feel like there’s anything totally like dangerous standing in the way the Celtics are the only ones so you know you could say if embiid’s healthy he’s never he’s never healthy this time that time of year I mean you know there comes a point he’s an amazing player but gotta prove it that he can play at that level and be durable uh in those in those huge moments so so my my simple answer is like there’s a pathway there to I’m not saying that magic are going to be title contenders next year but like there’s a there’s a there’s a path I mean the Pacers were never considered title contenders and they were in the Conference Finals so that alone like the the door is open the door is open and even in when when mbid is healthy I mean he hasn’t really kept that same level of of production into the playoffs so joshh I think I’m right there with you in terms of you know outside of Boston you know who hate you know the magic have had some limited success against the last couple of Seasons you know it does feel like the the door is sort of open Josh I wanted to take a second just to shout out your YouTube channel not only are you you know you do stuff for Orlando magic.com but you have a a YouTube channel where you not only break down the magic but you break down guys really all across the league and um just your Insight is always you know super impressive and and entertaining but Josh uh you want to tell everybody maybe aside from the YouTube where uh they can find you on social media yeah uh my my Twitter or x what are we calling it these days I just call it Twitter man it’s still it’s just Josh cenor NBA uh and then of course um Orlando magic.com is where you can find like articles about the magic awesome Josh Cohen really really appreciate the time man always super impressive your knowledge your Insight can’t tell you enough how much we appreciate it thanks guys really appreciate it once again a big thank you to Josh for taking the time to join the show always appreciate his conversation his Insight Luke literally nobody watches more basketball than that dude and you can tell whenever you have a conversation with him it it it always jumps out at me when I’m like oh this dude knows so much more than me about the NBA when he’s talking about like on the front end and maybe this makes me a casual for when it comes to the 90s of NBA basketball which admittedly I’m not as well versed as as I should be on that or maybe as people think I should be but he’s talking about wearing an NBA Jam shirt correct but it’s got current player so it’s redeeming um but when he’s talking about like the evolution of teams and he’s flying through like ripping off players and talking about like that was that was the second stent of that that three rep for the bulls with these guys and whatever like he was saying that and I was like yeah this guy is this guy knows every era of NBA basketball there are some people like that I wonder how far back the knowledge goes and I’d be willing to bet it’s pretty ludicrous how far back his knowledge goes of the NBA and the history but I envy people like that because he has a like a passion for that and I just don’t like I don’t care to be honest anything to do with really any any era I haven’t been alive for as selfish as it sounds I just don’t care um and I’ll know I know the magic stuff and I know the general stuff right more than the average person but Josh Cohen knows everything when it comes to the NBA and you can’t convince me otherwise well like if I were to ask you you to tell me about like the Spurs from like 2005 to 2014 like you could give me a pretty good you know notes on the Spurs right like I think part of it is just like he lived through that era like I have basic understanding of the the you know more than a basic understanding of like the 90s bulls and you know the teams that were good during those times but part of it is just like having you know lived through that time you specifically but yeah like Josh during the NBA season if he’s not watching the magic I’m sure he’s got like four or five games on on league pass at a time flipping through all of them and then into the offseason is Going Back re-watching Games re-watching Film like just the the Insight um and just his perspective is always incredible yeah appreciate taking the time Josh always good to talk to him and then you know we got about a week and a half uh until free agency officially starts just about a week out from the draft so the content is just going to continue to to pick up and we appreciate everybody listening throughout the offseason here but Luke I think that’s going to do it for this one unless you’ve got anything else that you want to talk about any any you want to rant any comments or as my my day job supervisor would say any SN remarks none of those none at all uh shout out once again Josh Cohen absolutely that is going to do it for this one again thank you to Josh Cohen for Luke syvia this has been Jonathan Osborne you all have been listening to the six-man show and we will catch you guys next time see you thanks for listening to the Sixth Man Show be sure to subscribe on iTunes and Spotify to get new episodes downloaded directly to your phone if you enjoyed the show please please take a minute to give us a f-star rating and a review it helps out the show a lot follow us on Twitter Instagram and Facebook @ 6man show we’ll catch you guys next time go magic let go go goic

Joined by Josh Cohen of OrlandoMagic.com, we discuss the parallels between the young Orlando Magic and the champion Boston Celtics. Also, the Magic are the co-betting favorites to sign Klay Thompson this offseason.

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0:00 – Intro
4:16 – Klay Thompson to the Magic?
18:12 – Patron Shoutout
20:12 – Josh Cohen
1:03:53 – Outro

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