Emergency podcast: Instant reaction to the Cavs’ hiring of Kenny Atkinson

Emergency podcast: Instant reaction to the Cavs’ hiring of Kenny Atkinson

what up Cavs Nation I’m your host Ethan Sans and I’m back with another episode of the wine and gold Talk podcast I’m joined by two of the best in the business Chris Fedor Jimmy Watkins and we got some news for you guys to discuss today the Cavs have finally selected their next head coach and it’s Kenny Atkinson he’s a guy who has experienced as a head coach previously with the Brooklyn Nets he’s a guy that is coming off a tenure with being the assistant coach to Steve Kerr and it’s a guy that has been in the running for a long time now Chris first and foremost how do you feel that the Cavs went about this um decision and the decision as a whole what are your thoughts on that well I mean it’s not surprising to me that um they went into it with a general idea of of what they were looking for in their next head coach however they ended up with Kenny Atkinson um I do think they had a plan in place I think they interviewed a number of different guys I was told upwards of 10 some of those were over Zoom others were in person um then they narrowed down their candidate pool and then it seemed like from the very beginning it was probably going to be between James bgo and Kenny Atkinson and at the very end it was between James Bargo and Kenny Atkinson and it was just about what kinds of things were they looking for from the head coach and I don’t want to say that they ruled out firsttime assistance completely um because that wouldn’t have been doing themselves justice during the search you have to um dig into a lot of different aspects of these coaching candidates but it just felt like from the very beginning guys that this wasn’t a job that was earmarked for a firsttime head coach it was a job with everything that’s stake for this organization it was a job for somebody with previous head coaching experience and I just think when you look at Kenny Atkinson his resume he’s been around Tylo been around Mike dantonio been around Mike buen holer um been around Steve Kerr you’re talking about well-respected coaches currently in the NBA or throughout history in the NBA when you’re talking about Mike dantonio and everything that he meant to um how how this game has changed over the last decade decade and a half um being able to learn from those guys take Concepts from those guys uh grow as a person grow as a coach I think those things obviously appealed to the Cavs um and I think the final thing is his Player Development um guys that that have been with him have raved about how much they have gotten better under his watch he started his career as a Player Development coach the Cavs are very invested in EV Moy and getting the most out of Evan Moy and I think they believe somebody who has groomed players in the past including Jared Allen by the way um including Jonathan kaminga with the Golden State Warriors um I I think they believe that this is the kind of guy for this situation um he checks enough of the boxes that they’re comfortable with this higher checks he checks enough of the boxes it’s a interesting way to phrase that and I think that’s interesting because I don’t know that there was anybody who checked all of the boxes right like we’d look at ainson and bgo who were the two top guys pretty clearly both the two most prominent um candidates with head coaching experience the one thing that that neither one of them can check they’ve got the head coaching experience they’ve got the dynamic offensive ideas they’ve got um the Player Development background they they’ve got a a history of getting more out of their rosters than maybe we thought those rosters could give right but there’s they’ve never neither one of them have ever been on a big time playoff stage and neither one of them have been in this kind of situation where the Cavs like kind of the same reason the Cavs ruled out first-time assistance there’s so much urgency right now with this team and there’s so much so much writing on frankly Donovan Mitchell’s day-to-day mood like making sure that he feels comfortable with the direction of the franchise at all times and Kenny is a very interesting candidate in that way particularly because of how his tenure ended in Brooklyn um but for those who don’t remember Kenny Aon coached the Brooklyn Nets for four years the first three of those years they were in like the NBA desert Wasteland still because of the Kevin Garnett Paul Pierce trade and they were just slapping together a roster with whatever they could find and that team got better every year um I think they were a top 10 defense by the time his tenure ended there and they actually made a playoff run with a group that that that no one expected to make the playoffs frankly um but then Kyrie and Kevin Durant come in and about 60 games into their first season there Durant hurt during this time they kind of I don’t know force them out basically there was a quote that Kenny gave uh that Shawn Marx gave to the New York Post in the immediate aftermath of that where he said where markx said that Kenny basically came to Marks and said yeah I don’t think my voice is resonating with this group the same way it did with with the previous groups we’ve had um I think being around tyo can help can help with that coaching development that maybe needed to take place with Kenny ainson a lot Steve Kerr is the same way he is Steve Kerr comes from like the papovich Phil Jackson tree of philosophy it’s coaching is more than ex’s and nose it’s about people management right but I think that’s the The X Factor that we cannot know until we see it in this in this higher is how how does Kenny ainson handle the amount of pressure that’s on him right now and how is how is he going to handle the dynamic with Donovan Mitchell who to be clear is a much easier Superstar to manage than Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant have been historically those guys like that situation I wrote about this for the website today and it’s it is a question about Kenny but at the same time that that situation ended in Brooklyn as much because Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving can be let’s say a little Mercurial Mercurial I’m not good at pronouncing words today Mercurial and Donovan Mitchell he’s just a little bit more easygoing it seems like than than some than those other two guys yeah and I think a point that you made that I found rather interesting while doing research is that was Kevin Durant didn’t play in the fir in the last season of Ky ainson tenure with the Brooklyn Nets and the Brooklyn Nets were a 40 plus win team in his third season before Kyrie Irving got there so it was a question of what he was able to do with the superstars what he was able to do to manage the locker room and things of that nature that you mentioned Jimmy real quick I just want to one thing that just came in my mind Kyrie Irving shortly after this when I think it was when they were hiring Steve Nash Kyrie iring literally said the words we don’t need a coach or or something to that effect so that’s what he was that’s what Kenny was dealing with over there and I think that’s important to note because we know that then Kenny ainson went and joined Steve Kerr and was around superstars that are more likable uh like Stephen Curry but also had to deal with personalities like Draymond Green in the same breath so you get that experience and then we also learned that in the 2022 year when they were in the NBA finals and Kenny ainson reportedly got an offer from the Charlotte Hornets for that head coaching job and and took it then took it back and all of that nonsense but to me when that came out when that happened it came off to me that he was ready and a part of an organization that was made off winning they are a winning organization when it comes to the Golden State Warriors Charlotte we all know or not at this point the Cleveland Cavaliers are in the front seat to make the jump to the Eastern Conference Finals NBA finals and I think Kenny a and is trying to show that he is ready for to be a part again with a winning organization and I think that is something that is necessary to to make point of because of the kind of messiness that did occur in Brooklyn so Chris what do you think of that whole dynamic and him being able to manage uh relationships and players but also noting how good he has been as a Player Development coach well I think there are a couple of things guys first first of all I talked to a lot of different people about the whole Kenny ainson situation um with Charlotte and him ultimately deciding that that wasn’t the situation for him um pulling out of the head coaching job he accepted the job and he decided against it um there were a couple things involved with that number one if you remember um he spent basically a cup of coffee with the Los Angeles Clippers and then he went to Golden State and like golden state was a place that he thought he was going to be for a while while he has a family he has a wife and he had taken his family from Los Angeles to Golden State and then he would have been taking his family from Los Angeles to Golden State to Charlotte in such a small stretch and I think part of him after discussing it more with his wife and with his family um they didn’t want to take the kids out of school they didn’t want to uproot the family again there were some Dynamics in play from that standpoint and and I think he also they had just won a championship in Golden State and it was a really really good situation I think he understood that not that his star was on the rise but but he was somebody that other teams around the NBA were interested in and they were going to be interested in him regardless um but but if you’re a head coach and you um have the kind of exit that he did in Brooklyn once already you know you have to be pretty judicious about the next shot that you take Within organiz a you have to make sure that it’s right for you for your family and it sets you up for success and I think after thinking about it more um from everything that I had heard you know Kenny decided that wasn’t the best situation for him in Charlotte um that he wanted something with a little bit more stability a little bit more structure and he felt like he had positioned himself um to be a little bit more judicious when it came to which decision he was going to make for his next head coaching job um in in a roundabout way he felt like there was a better position eventually waiting for him in the future than the one in Charlotte because if he would have gone to Charlotte and failed again the view of Kenny Atkinson you know it’s different right there’s a legitimate question about do you get a third shot as a head coach um so I think he just wanted a situation where he felt better about his chances of succeeding and that time it just wasn’t the Hornets there were a lot of things going on in Charlotte there still are a lot of things going on with the Hornets so you know he was a little bit more patient um he was a little bit more choosy and it it ended up with him coming here to Cleveland and I think everybody would say that the situation right now in Cleveland for all of this uncertainty surrounding Donovan Mitchell for all the things that you want to say about Dan Gilbert being a wild card in the organization the same reputation that he has had for the last 15 years or so um for all the things that you can say that that might be flawed within this organization the roster construction all that stuff um it is a better situation it is a more secure situation it sets him up better to have success than the Charlotte job in in 2022 so um that that’s what I learned about that situation recently and and I think you you know we’ve talked about this before on the podcast guys so much about um success when it comes to a coaches the situation that you’re put into and I think certain coaches are right for certain situations and certain setups and other ones are better off in other ones um you know JB bicker staff is looked at around the NBA as a guy who um can help instill a culture can help Pull A team out of a rebuild um can put principles in place and and all of those things that are really really important for a young team that is in the middle of a rebuild um but there are questions about him as a tactician about his offensive design his offensive creativity and all the stuff that matters more when you get into the situation that the Cavs are in and I do think Kenny being around Los Angeles star studded Los Angeles Kawai Paul George seeing how tyo men managed those personalities how he handled that kind of uh pressure and those expectations that was important for somebody like Kenny Atkinson I also think being in Golden State around that organization seeing how uh how to win seeing what it takes to win seeing the day-to-day things that are required when it comes to winning seeing what success looks like at the highest level I think that’s very very helpful too for him coming into this situation where there is going to be pressure there are going to be expectations this is a team that is coming off back-to-back playoff appearances coming off in Eastern Conference semi finals birth and they’re expected to do more he’s going to be expected to do more than what JB bicker staff did and I think all of his stops after Brooklyn um set him up better for that than if he would have gone to Charlotte so Chris mentioned uh our friend The Godfather of Rocket mortgage Fieldhouse Dan Gilbert there um and I’m glad he did because my my initial reaction this morning when when we heard this the news that Kenny was the coach I was like H not James bgo huh it’s kind of interesting and I think they’re in my head there are two reasons why that that situation could have changed one is on the calside one’s on bgo side so bgo has been the seemed like from what we were hearing what we’ve been reporting brego was leader in the clubhouse for a while at least in the early stages of this coaching process coach search coaching search process and then what sometime middle of last week or so things started to shift in a little bit so around that same time the Pistons fired Monty Williams Pistons are run by traan Tran langon who used to work in Cleveland obviously and used to work with Jame who has ties with James burgo obviously uh because of their New Orleans stint together so from the bgo side I’m wondering did he did he tell the Cavs either I want to wait a little longer and and hear out my buddy in Detroit here about what they’ve got going on over there I like the security of of having that interpersonal relationship with with my potential boss um or do I do I even want to take that job like are we going to hear in the next couple hours that the Pistons are Hing James brego and that’s why this happened or did did the Cavs Cavs had a little powwow last week with Dan Gilbert did Dan Gilbert inject himself into the conversation here and say I like Kenny ainson more than James burgo I’m just I I don’t know that that the the Atkinson news kind of surprised me a little bit and I’m just wondering what we think shifted under the surface there well so the meeting with Dan Gilbert happen on Wednesday from what I’m told um middle of last week and it’s interesting that you bring that up Jimmy and Ethan because um going into the weekend I started getting um a lot of texts from a lot of people around the NBA um those that were reaching out to me those that I reached out to and they said you know Kenny Atkinson is not out of this thing um now look Atkinson was somebody who was labeled the front runner from the very beginning by a reliable source to me um the first article that I put out after JB bicker staff got fired and after the Cavs started this coaching search somebody said it’s Atkinson’s to lose that he was the front runner from the beginning um but there was a lot of momentum for James bgo there was a great feeling that the organization had when it came to James Baro did really really good in his interviews um both over zoom and in person had dinner with the organization right the the the the feedback that they got from former players uh other coaches uh Executives around the NBA people that the Cavs front office uh people that they trust that they reached out to during the entire process that feedback that they were getting on bgo was very very flattering uh same thing with Kenny Atkinson so I I think he was always in the running but it did feel like the the shift happened a little bit or at least people around the NBA believed that the shift was happening a little bit um after that meeting with Dan Gilbert and going into this weekend and um Dan is always going to be involved in every big decision that this organization makes that’s his job that’s his right um that that’s how he likes to operate this organization and this organization belongs to him um so he is going to have a say he is going to be prominent in every big decision that this organization makes and it does feel like that meeting um between team decision makers and Dan Gilbert uh the lead Executives that were running the search was really really important in terms of them going down this road I also think um that the timing of this can’t be overlooked uh number one the draft being right around the corner the Cavs said from the very beginning even though it was a moving Target um the Cav said from the very beginning if they could have this done by the time that the draft happened on Wednesday night uh that would be beneficial for them that would be preferable for them um so when when you’re operating with a quote unquote deadline however loose that deadline is uh there’s a little bit more urgency right when you have another team that pops up with a coaching opening and it’s no longer just you and the Lakers or in some cases just you out there that hasn’t hired a coach um you have a little bit more urgency right um I I think the Cavs conducted this thing at the pace in part at the pace that they did because it was just them and the Lakers and there was a belief around uh the NBA that that if the Lakers couldn’t woo Dan Hurley out of Connecticut that it was going to be JJ reic right so the Cavs didn’t feel in in some ways any kind of urgency to get something done from that standpoint because who were they competing with for a coach they could take their time they could do the process the way that they wanted to uh but when the Pistons job popped up obviously that brought another team in the mix that brought another team in the mix that had some ties to the top two guys that the Cavs were looking at because ainson was with Lon in Brooklyn too can’t forget that um so I do think there was a little bit more urgency for the Cavs uh to get this thing completed not just by draft night but because of the other opening that popped up in the NBA and and how that how those candidates played into that particular search for the Pistons in a way that they didn’t as strongly um as the one for the Lakers because it just seemed like it was either Dan Hurley’s job or JJ reck’s job from the very beginning two things real quick sorry Ethan um for first of all for the Cavs fans who are saying why would the Pistons job be considered competition for the Cavs job that makes no no sense the Pistons are the worst team in the league basically and the Cavs are a team that’s ready to make a finals run two things one it cannot be oversold how much coaches value the relationship that they could have with their boss that Kenny ainson and James burgo could have P trasan langon that’s just that that uh Dynamic is can’t be overstated too coaches Co job security is a funny thing job security is a funny thing winning when you want to win more games you choose the Cavs 12 times out of 10 obviously but expectations are not good for job security and the Pistons while they certainly expect to win more than I don’t I hand up I don’t know how many games the Pistons won this year not very many 14 I was gonna say 18 so there you go 14 17 the year before they got worse they expect to win more than that and maybe they even expect to make a I don’t know 10 seed playin push or something next year you have a longer Runway there will be more patience with you in Detroit then you will have with the Cavs who again it’s it’s time to win big now in Cleveland second thing is I don’t want people to misconstrue the Dan Gilbert Point here because there is a very big difference between Dan Gilbert being like a wild Outlaw who swings in on his horse yes yes swings in on his horse and says no stop the search Kenny Atkinson is our guy yeah and what more more than likely happened is the Cs say hey Dan we have two really good candidates here kind of a 1 a 1B situation we value your input on this he gives you your input he gives his input it’s let’s say he liked Kenny Atkinson and they go okay we like him too let’s do it there’s a very there’s a very big difference between those two things that’s all I’ll say and I think what you said Jimmy that I thought was really important that I was to go to next was like being able to come into an organization that had one of the worst records in like NBA history and saying hey this might be my last shot as an NBA head coach maybe I take the team that I have a better like you said Runway to be successful because if I take this team from 14 wins to 28 wins that’s still a success but if if I even take them even further then I can be seen as quote unquote an unsung hero for for that organization depending on what happens but you want to think about how important the Detroit Pistons job opening was for the Cavs as well because you think about we had talked about it Chris the potential that the Cavs if there were no other head coaching jobs open could have been able to persuade James bgo and Kenny ainson to be on the same staff potentially but I think that it would have been hard to say that you were going to bring somebody away from another head coaching opportunity rather than having a horizontal lateral move as a assistant coach but I had the opportunity to talk to our sub texter as we love to do and I got to send them a poll to see if they thought the move to get Kenny ainson could help the Cavs take the next step and get to the Eastern Conference Finals or the NBA finals which is the next step for them in the playoffs so I sent the poll out probably about three hours ago and there was a good amount of response and the the question was I’m G say it exactly how I wrote it is Kenny ainson the right coach to lead the Cav further into the playoffs 78% of the votes said yes and 21 or 22% of the votes said no so it is kind of a tossup not really it’s more so on the yes side obviously but I wanted to see from you guys Chris and Jimmy do you think that Kenny ainson has the right schemes on the offensive end has the right potential for Player Development to bring the Cavs to where they want to go in the next couple of Seasons I’m going to answered this thing as honestly as I possibly can I have no freaking idea idea how does anybody know this is one of the toughest things for any Joe like us to evaluate and and here’s the thing guys when when I try to answer these questions I ask as many smart people around the NBA for their feedback so that it can inform mine because like the 90% of the stuff that matters when it comes to being a head coach I don’t know that like Joe and Strongsville don’t know that you know what I mean like the 10% the 10% that that we pay most attention to like that is such a small percentage of the coaching responsibility and whether a guy is going to be successful or not successful we can talk about lineups right we can talk about rotations we can talk about X’s and O’s to some degree uh we can talk about how does he use his coaching challenge we can talk about all that stuff that we see that we believe we know right but the behind the scenes stuff that matters more to success how do we know that you can’t really see that you can’t judge that because you don’t know it to the same level that Kenny Atkinson does you don’t know it to the same level that these organizations do they see it on a day-to-day basis they’re there every single day the behind the scenes stuff the interactions with players we don’t get that stuff firsthand and we’re not knowledgeable enough on the intricate details of being a head coach in the NBA so like I said I’m relying on people that I trust around the game that know way more than me because they’re in the game because they coach at the NBA level because they evaluate these things constantly from front offices or from a scouting standpoint and the people that I have talked to throughout the course of this coaching search about Kenny ainson they all say really really good things about him they say you got a raw deal in Brooklyn say that he did a really good job with the Nets say that he’s really good when it comes to Player Development and the evidence backs that up because the players that got better under his watch uh say that he has learned a lot from really really smart coaches around the NBA like I said coach Bud Mike dantony Steve Kerr Ty Lou those are some really good coaches to be around that that can help you become a better person and a better Coach they say that he runs really good creative Dynamic stuff on the offensive end they say that he’s Innovative and he’s willing to try new things and he’s got more modern principles that he leans on all that kind of stuff is what they say they say that he’s a good teacher they say that he’s detail oriented they say that he’s structured like all of those things would seem to appeal to a player right all those things would seem to appeal to an organization right so it seems like based on the traits that he has and the feedback that I’ve gotten plus the fact that he’s been a head coach before it would lead me to believe that yeah he can be successful but predicting whether a coach is going to go on and be successful is a fool errand it’s a really difficult thing Joe Missoula NBA champion Joe Missoula toast to the town in Boston right now used to be called back row Joe like everybody was making fun of him like I’m sorry they hired who like the best coach in the Celtics organization is the dude sitting in his perch in the front office Brad Stevens we got this guy we got Joe moua like what and look at him now he’s looked at is brilliant like really really smart able to connect with players all those different things so I have no freaking idea if Kenny ainson is going to be successful in lead this team uh to the next level but I will say this the smart people that I talk to feel good about this hire from a Cav standpoint and it’s a logical fit for this team because at the very least what we know about Kenny Atkinson is that he can do this job he can because he has done it before and he has had some success a level of success in this particular role that he is taking on I can’t say that about Mike and Nori if they would have hired him the Minnesota assistant I can’t say that about Johnny Bryant if the Cavs would have hired him during this process like at the very least this guy Kenny ainson is fit for the job and can do this job because he has done it before for every for every Joe in Boston Joe Missoula there’s a Joe and Strongsville trying to take him down right um it’s just my go-to the first name that came in so Joe and Strongsville if you’re listening to this podcast and you’re like man that MF Chris no no no no no I’m not specifically talking about you something that you texted in with Joe and Strongsville or you called into a radio station and I heard you I’m not saying you Joe and Strongsville it’s just the first name that came to mind and I usually go with Strongsville it could be step Bay Village my neighbor big day for Joe’s and Steve on the podcast um it’s funny the the poll results are so funny to me because to Chris’s point we’ll see but the fans are I wouldn’t say it’s like a a a screaming yes on Kenny Atkinson but it’s a it’s a yes that Echoes I me that’s basically 8020 split Kenny ainson has that new car smell to him where just seems like every time you get a new coach in the building everyone’s all excited everyone’s got all this optimism about him just because changes change is exciting right um but I think what this will come down to can Kenny ainson lead the Cavs to whatever Promised Land you want to say is their Promised Land can he fix the offense can he raise the ceiling of this offense while maintaining the elite defense that Cavs have put together to C’s point I can’t draw up I can’t drop on a whiteboard how he’s going to do that but I would answer that question with another question which is what’s the roster GNA what is the roster going to look like uh while Kenny Atkinson tries to do that and to that point I did I was doing a little nba.com lineup data uh Library searching this morning and first of all just a fun little time machine Kenny aon’s most played lineup his first year in uh in Brooklyn Jeremy Lynn Randy Foy Caris LeVert Brook L Brook Lopez and who’s the fifth guy Ronde Hollis Jefferson that’s my favorite Ronda Hollis Jefferson just a total throwback player incredible defensive player six7 can’t shoot a lick but a fun Lefty guy um I just thought that was fun Theo before came there you go there you go um I promise there’s a point to this though part of this is Brooklyn’s roster construction at the time they didn’t have the I you know they didn’t have any assets really to to get the kind of players that you need to win a championship but a theme that kept popping up as I searched through Kenny’s most played lineups during his four years in Brooklyn just not a lot of lineups with two non-shooters out there so we can say we can say he’s very creative with his schemes we can say he’s learned under there some great coaches and some great offensive coaches by the way Mike dantony Steve cerr re uiz the Warriors offense bud I mean bud just cranks out top five offenses in his sleep it seems like I’m excited to see what he does with the Suns um tyo I mean part of it has been aided by LeBron and a very well put together Clippers roster that shoots the heck out of the ball but tyo knows how to scheme up offense so I I trust that Kenny knows what he’s doing when he gets when he gets on the Whiteboard but there’s only so much you can do when the spacing is cramped so I’m f fated to see what Kenny I mean if someone else doesn’t ask it I’m going to ask it at the intro pressor like how do you make offense work with two non-shooters two non- shooting bigs how do you make how do you maintain everything that the Jared Allen and Evan Mo pairing has done for this franchise while raising the ceiling on an offense that has way too often gotten stuck in the mud in the playoffs over the last two seasons I don’t know the answer but that is I think what this question comes down to if Kenny ainson can can maintain the defensive Integrity that the Cavs have and get there I mean like at times it just felt like even average offense would be good enough without the way the Cavs were strangling teams out there um there there’s your answer to how successful this tenure will be but that’s also related to some other big decisions that the Cavs have coming up here but I also think it’s important to note that if there’s somebody that has experience coaching Jared Allen it’s Kenny ainson I mean he’s had experience coaching him in his first couple years in the NBA and he actually helped him learn his game because we know that Jared Allen came into the into the league as a 19yearold young kid who we knew he was big we knew he could grab rebounds but what are you gonna do offensively and he learned that under Kenny under Kenny ainson and that’s also a conversation that we heard was happening around the coaching search was guys and people the upper staff of the organization asking Jared Allen and Carris lever and having conversations about what is he like as a coach what is he get a bring and like you said Jimmy Caris LT was one of the guys that he played the most in his lineups when he was in Brooklyn Caris L is now a six-man role player for the Cavs and how will he be able to implement him into those designs without with having different Ball scoring or ball Dominic scorers on his team and I think those are different questions that are both still going to be answered this offseason because like you said roster moves will more than likely be coming and they are going to impact what the Cavs do and also what Kenny ainson does so do you I think the next question is how do the Cavs build around Kenny ainson and that’s not me talking about roster moves that’s me talking about the assistant coaches because we understand how important these guys are going to be and we also know that the Cavs have not let go everybody in uh from JB bicker staff’s assistant coaching tree so Chris I heard that you might have some sourcing on potential guys that might be coming into Cav’s Organization for conversations about being an assistant coach under Kenny ainson what do you got for us well I think we’ve talked about this before guys on the podcast so much of this is relationships so much of this is about trust and connections and what do you think about when JB bigger staff came aboard um when he became the full-time coach of the Cavs he went out and he brought in as many guys that he could that he trusted that he had ties with Greg Buckner cydney low Luke Walton so I just asked a few different people around the NBA like hey who makes sense for Kenny ainson to bring to the Cavs um if he becomes the coach that was during the entire process um just so that I could try and be prepared and and be ahead of the game on this sort of thing one of the names that was brought up to me actually just took a new job um W reported that uh Chris Fleming is joining chony bips and the coaching staff there with the Portland Trailblazers now that was somebody that was brought up to me because he was with Kenny kind of as Kenny’s right-hand Man in Brooklyn um when Kenny was a head coach for the only time in the NBA but if if he’s out of the mix that becomes pretty interesting you know can the Cavs convince one of these guys uh that they talked to during this coaching search uh to come to Cleveland and get a cushier title than what they currently have here so that they don’t view it as a lateral move or give them a little boost in pay or give them a little bit more responsibility within the organization that’s something to watch for because you think about it you know the previous two coaching searches that the Cavs conducted one of them um ended with John beine the other one ended with David blat those were examples of Dan Gilbert by the way going rogue um and and they decided like hey we gotta have somebody with a real big-time NBA experience in both of these situations because David blat has been coaching overseas his entire life and John Bon’s been at the college level his entire life so like who can we get from an NBA perspective that can kind of show this guy the way in the NBA that can do things from an NBA standpoint and and introduce NBA principles and help them along the way and the first time it was tyou second time it was JB bigger staff so is there somebody out there that the Cavs interviewed during this process that isn’t going to get um the Lakers job obviously and isn’t going to get the Detroit Pistons job uh that is willing to make a move and come to this situation and be the right-hand man of Kenny Atkinson that’s something to monitor because the Cs did like other candidates during this process they just didn’t feel like uh they were ready to be head coaches and they didn’t feel like uh those guys were better options than the final two which what it felt like it came down to Kenny ainson and James bergo uh the other name to watch was actually here with the Cavs his name is Brett bre Meer um he was with the Cavs for a number of years the organization really likes him the organization knows him really really well he was their summer league coach one year actually um so there is a relationship there already there is an understanding of of how he is as a coach he is also the guy most responsible um for Jared Allen’s development in Brooklyn he was Jared Allen’s right-hand man as a Player Development the guy who was overseeing the development of Jared Allen in Brooklyn I’ve talked to Jared many times about Brett every time uh the Cavs play against the Orlando Magic which is where Brett B Meyer is right now um Jared has a warm embrace with him Jared talks with him they spent so many Summers together uh he is currently on the staff of Jamal Mosley in Orlando but he was with Kenny Atkinson in Brooklyn so he has that tie he has the Cleveland ties he’s been um learning from Jamal Mosley for a number of years like is that somebody that the Cavs could pry away potentially does that then open up a spot unto M Mosley’s coaching staff for JB bicker staff to join his buddy as an assistant in Orlando if JB doesn’t get the Detroit job um just spitballing but Brett BR Meer um is a name that was brought up to me as well and he is still very close to uh a number of people inside the current Cavs organization including Jared El and Kenny X obviously the Jared Allen of it all is so fascinating to me because here we have a situation where Kenny ainson kind of a perfect perfect coach for Jared Allen I saw a clip of him uh talking on JJ Rex podcast so like from a while back just about his time with with Kenny and Brooklyn and very clear that Jared Allen loved playing for Kenny Atkinson and now we’re spitballing uh an assistant coach who has very close ties to Jared Allen we had the whole Donovan Mitchell Instagram story Saga last week where where JB bicker staff maybe kind of sort of took a shot at Jared Allen on the radio and then Donovan Mitchell you know uh voices his support uh of Jared Allen with an Instagram story of them embracing and yeah yet like a month ago if you asked all three of us which member of the Cavs 4 four is most likely to be traded this off season I don’t know Jared Allen Darius Garland 1 A1 be like it’s it’s just it’s such a fascinating conflict because on the one hand Jared Allen might have a bunch of new friends on the Cavs coaching staff and might have an optimized working environment on the other hand we all agree Evan mooy is the most important uh Player Development story in the Cavs organization right now and I’m just not sure still how how well those two narratives can coexist like can we have a perfect environment for Jared Allen to be the best Jared Allen could maybe even a better Jared Allen that we’ve already seen and maximize Evan Mo’s development can we do that at the same time it’s a question we’ve been asking since they’ve both they both got here and I I kind of felt like after the Boston series where Evan Moy played best playoff series of his career some of the best basketball of his career in certain moments kind of thought we had at least an inkling of an answer to that question but now it’s it’s getting muddy the the waters the waters are getting muddied again on this topic it’s fascinating to me yeah and I I mean it’s interesting for aund different reasons first off being that we like you said jimy we’ve talked about Jared Allen being a trade piece and wanting to see if do you think that this higher and the potential is higher some the assistant coaches that like Jimmy said could be friends of Jared Allen would help his case to stay on the caves or we’ve also talked about Caris LeVert potentially being in trade packages because that helped his case for staying on the caves and I and I think it’s interesting also because a subtext pointed out to me that in W’s article about uh the hire for Kenny ainson by the Cavs he mentioned Evan Moy as the center of the team he didn’t say that he was the power forward or whatever obviously could have just been a slip up or could have been something whatever he’s a seven-footer you just obviously automatically put him at a center but what could that mean for the Caps all of those different things Chris I want to know from you do you think that Jared Allen getting his old head coach back potentially assistant coaches coming on that he’s been around and has liked or whatever that may be does that help his chances of not only staying with the organization but also being happy while doing so because we understand that Jared has said on multiple occasions his physical he’ll fig figure it out but his mental is where he wants to make sure he’s going to be good at all times I think there are three things that are going to matter most when it comes to um whether Jared Allen is is back next season or not number one does Donovan Mitchell want him back I think the answer to that is yes him and Jarrett are a very good pairing the numbers point that out Donovan has raved about Jarrett since the moment that he got here talking about forming a pick and roll partnership very similar to the one that he had in Utah with Rudy goar Donovan has always been at his best when attacking downhill and having that kind of pick and roll dance partner and Jared is one of the elite pick and roll bigs in the NBA so that’s part of it uh number two what kinds of offers are the Cavs getting for Jared what kinds of value um do do teams around the NBA place on Jarrett and is there an offer out there with the kind of framework that the Cavs would be willing to say yes to that they feel like moving on from Jared Allen and getting back what they would get back and reconfiguring the roster in a certain kind of way would make them a better basketball team and give them a better chance um to take that step forward that they want to take um you’re not just going to trade Jarrett just to trade him you’re not just going to take bad value back it’s got to be something that enhances your chances this is a team that made the Eastern Conference semi-finals for all the flaws that you want to talk about with the roster for all the imbalance that you want to talk about with the roster there has been success that this organization has enjoyed to some level with the core four together including Jared Ellen so that would be number two and number three is yeah I mean what is the vision that the new coach Kenny ainson has for the pairing of Evan Mobley and Jarry because Evan Mobley is not going anywhere everybody understands that he’s going to get a fat new contract similar to the one that the Toronto Raptors are supposedly giving to Scotty Bourn um because Evan Moy is the future of this organization I talked to somebody earlier today a source that we were talking through the whole Kenny ainson hire for the Cavs and a big thing that was brought up to me was the development of Evan Moy and how Kenny Atkinson’s background is a Player Development coach and how how much he values Player Development and the things that he has done in terms of Player Development how much all of that mattered because of the view that the Cavs have of Evan Moy because of the value that they’ve placed on Moy and they believe that Kenny is the kind of Coach that’s going to get the most out of Evan Mobley get the best out of Evan Mobley allow him to flourish more in the offense but that also ties in to Jarett and if Kenny Atkinson has a real plan a plan that makes sense a plan that everybody agrees to um for how to play Jarrett and Evan together and why he thinks it can be successful offensively and how to work around their limitations as a Duo that is going to matter in the Jared Allen equation as well um so those to me are are the three most important factors yeah I mean I think it’s it’s great for Jarrett that he has a coach that he’s familiar with a coach that he trusts a coach that clearly likes him and has confidence in him that obviously boosts his chances of remaining on this roster but but I think that’s a little bit further down the list than the other things that I talked about we’re talking a lot about Jared Al Evan Moi right now we haven’t it’s weird how little Donovan Mitchell has come up on this podcast you know like we’re talking about we’re talking about shopping assistants what about what about Johnny Bryant yeah sure Johnny Bryant the guy who who helped Donovan so much at the beginning of his career in Utah um I’m also curious about like how how involved do we think Donovan Mitchell was I don’t want to like know this is a very delicate topic how involved do we think he was in this coaching so from what I’m told Donovan had multiple conversations with different candidates during the search uh my understanding is that two of them were James bgo and Kenny Atkinson um that’s logical because both of those guys were perceived to be the two finalists and Kobe Alman even said said at his end of season press conference the president of basketball operations said Don Mitchell is going to be involved um in some capacity he’s going to be involved in the decision-making of this organization and Donovan has earned that he has earned that level of power um they they took his advice on Max stru they took his advice on George Nang last offseason Tai Jerome as well Donovan’s going to be involved in the decision making when it comes to anything with this organization so my understanding is that he did talk um to both Kenny ainson and James Bargo he had long conversations with them um and Donovan signed off on on both of those guys and he signed off on this particular hire with Kenny in part because of what he believes to be true um of how he’s going to be used and and what this offense is going to look like under Kenny Atkinson which you know that was a problem last year um with the Cavs that was a problem the year before with JB bicker staff he after that flame out with the New York Knicks last April he was basically given I don’t want to say an ultimatum but I can’t find the other word he’s basically told um this past off season make this offense more Dynamic make this offense more creative get more out of Darius Garland Donovan Mitchell together find a way to make this offense uh a little bit closer to to the defense so that we don’t have a repeat in the playoffs of of what we had against the Knicks and not everybody had the confidence level in JB’s offense or the belief that it was ever going to get to that point so I think the things that Donovan has learned um during the search about what the offense is going to look like under Kenny Atkinson and and how Donovan is going to be used specifically um from everything that I’m told that that appealed to Donovan and I think that is a great point but also the fact that Kobe Alman had talked about not wanting to break up the core four at his end of season presser and it feels like this is one of the guys if not the guy that he would have needed to bring on to make that a reality because you understand like you said Chris his Player Development being one of the things that he is known for Darius Garland is someone that needs Player Development that guy needs maturation and he needs to be able to have somebody he can confide in and having that be a head coach is a big thing as well then you look at Evan Mobley and we’ve talked about it a lot on this podcast the pairing of Evan Moy and Jared Allen and how if it’s the same as it has been the last couple of Seasons it shows that it could be difficult to work but if Kenny ainson comes in gets Evan Moy the assisted help or the Player Development that he needed to enhance his three-point shot and enhance his spacing enhance his dribbling enhance the things that he needs to do to be able to space the floor Creed on his own and things of that nature then the problem kind of evaporates because you understand that Evan Mobley can do a lot of the things that are necessary to make this team go to the next level if like we’ve said on multiple podcasts he takes that next step and Jared Allen is a big piece for this team not only for Donovan Mitchell setting screens and doing those things but also his defensive Acumen and being able to crash the boards and grab rebounds he’s led the team in rebounds almost since he’s been on this team so I think it’s important to look at all these different things but I do want to kind of end this podcast on a different question for you guys and you alluded to it Chris earlier with the Toronto Raptors and Scotty Barnes we know that Evan Moy is going to be in conversations for Max contracts for Max rookie contracts so the reported cont contract for Scotty Barnes is 5 years 270 million do you guys think that the Cavs are going to outp pay that for Evan moble uh to my understanding that’s the max that’s the rookie scale Max contract if my numbers are accurate nobody told me there was going to be math involved in this job um but but if my math is accurate that is the rookie scale Max for somebody like Scotty right I believe so because he he’s becoming the franchise the highest paid player in franchise history so I I believe that would have to be the case as a rookie I’m just saying he doesn’t have like any other things that would make him qualified for no he’s not all NBA or anything like that all defensive team or nothing like that either so it would be similar for Mo Evan Moy like I don’t think there’s going to be a ton of negotiation here really EV MO is going to get the most money he can he can possibly get um to the point comfortable offering that to them for sure yeah and they should be to the point I I don’t want to belabor this point but like to the point about um Moy and jar Ethan said that you know this problem could evaporate if Evan Moy does this that in the third we’re talking about shooting here if Evan Moy becomes a three-point shooter that defenses have to respect then yeah the C that problem can no longer be a problem that’s just kind of one of the hardest skills to improve drastically in in the NBA like it just happens so infrequently that a that a player Evan and Evan Mobley has made progress he’s he’s raised eyebrows he had some very like in the Orlando series we made two threes in the first game we all threw a little mini parade because that’s those are legitimate signs of progress on a big stage but that’s that’s when teams are letting him shoot and then they continued letting him shoot and he stopped shooting him so like we still have such a long way to go on the Evan Moy shooting trajectory that I just don’t like we can’t just we can’t I don’t even think we can talk about that problem evaporating away at this at this juncture we have we have to see so much more from him um before we can start talking about that being a legitimate solution and honestly I I believe that Kenny Atkinson has a really good plan on how to use them together I believe he has you know using both of them as as screeners and and using them as dho guys and using all the different ways that you can use non-shooters to try to mitigate the spacing issue but the fact that there’s only so much you can scheme around one guy who always like you have two guys who are most useful on offense sitting in the dunker spot yeah that’s just that’s a hard problem to get around regardless of how many great coaching ideas you have which is why I think the roster question is as big of a question as as this coaching process was and Jimmy not only just most used there but most comfortable and most effective there right because you’re a coach and you’re trying to maximize the abilities of your guys and what that means to your offense and maximize your offense but if you have two guys that are most effective in the same spots on the floor and they occupy the same space it’s like you don’t want to tell Evan Moy consistently hey man get out to the par perimeter hey man go stand in the corner and wait for catching shoots you know what I mean because that’s not best for him and that’s not going to be best for your team because it’s not where he’s most comfortable and it’s not where he’s most effective so it is a more complicated question I think than than some Cavs decision makers are willing to admit it is and you know there are obvious signs that he is getting better as a shooter his form looks a lot better his release is he’s hitting the front rim back rim as opposed to the right left misses and all that other stuff that they measure he’s taking he’s also taking more that’s good yeah he’s taking more the volume’s up he’s more confident when stepping into those that helps as well you know you have to believe if you’re Evan Moy that that’s a shot that you should take that that’s not a bad shot because he’s so programmed to make the right Play constantly um but you know defense is still understand the limitations that he has and defenses still under understand the limitations that the Cavs have as a collective offense um with both those guys on the floor as good as they are together defensively as good as they are individually just from a talent perspective uh when both of those guys are on the floor the Cavs do not and have not function consistently as a highlevel offense and that is something that is going to be a challenge for Kenny Atkinson if the core 4 remains in place if that duo remains in place it’s not going to be oh I’m just gonna snap my fingers and fix it you know JB Bricker staff tried a lot of different things right um other smart coaches would look at the situation and try and find a lot of different things um but it’s just not an easy answer because they’re very they have overlapping skills and they have a certain Comfort within their own game of of where they want to be used where they’re most effective being used uh that’s why you know you saw JB uh a lot throughout the course of the Season say I’m only going to play these guys a couple of different spurts together beginning of the game end of the second quarter beginning of the third quarter sometimes end of the game um but a majority of it about half of it they were split apart so maybe Kenny ainson feels like that is a workable solution split them up a little bit more I don’t know it’s not easy though just to do some cleanup on the back end of some of the Evan Mobly uh contract discussion uh it comes down to the breakout bag because of uh Derek Rose uh which was in imp PL implemented because of the Rose rule quote unquote so uh if either of the players in question makes an all NBA team wins an MVP or wins defensive player of the year uh in the final year the rookie deals that 27 million rookie ma contract automatically escalates into a 2060 $260 million Rose rule deal so um the contract that was offered to that that will potentially be offered to Scotty Barnes could be worth up to 270 million which is what wers tweeted earlier today um and Evan Mobley did not win MVP or defensive player of the year or anything like that so that’ll be a discussion that’ll come this next season and what happens and if he’s able to continue his defensive prowess or like we’ve been talking about get that offense to a new level and see if he can get into the MVP conversation who knows but I think that’s where I want to wrap up today’s podcast Chris Jimmy you have anything you want to end before we get out of here I do not at the end of the day I think the the the best thing that I can say about this this Cav search uh no matter how you feel about the process involved and how long it took uh they ended up with a very logical Choice it is a logical Choice it is a good fit for the situation that the Cavs are in now it’s now it’s up to Kenny to make it work and um make it a success because the previous coaching searches were absolute failures and with that being said that that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the wine and gold Talk podcast but remember to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris and Me by subscribing to subex it has not been officially announced when there will be a press conference with Kenny ainson but if you want to find that out we’ll let you know as soon as it comes out and if there’s any new news when it comes to the assistant coaching search for Kenny ainson sta to get all that information sign up for a 14-day free trial or visit cleveland.com Cavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page if you don’t like it that’s fine all you have to do is text the word stop it’s easy but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get Insider coverage on the Cavs from me and Chris and even sometimes Jimmy this isn’t just our podcast it’s your podcast and the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext y’all be safe we are no

In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, the hosts discuss the Cavs’ new coaching hire, Kenny Atkinson.