How much of pats +- is him being bad vs him starting alongside a bunch of defensive sieves and having to make up for their shit?
He’s underdeveloped sure, but if he goes anywhere else I guarantee he turns into a mikal bridges type. Our development, coaching, and roster construction is just shit.
Obi_Wan_Gebroni
I agree Pat has been better by the eye test but it’s still a bit ridiculous to see people bend over backwards to deny the numbers that say he’s just not a very good player.
yearsreeling
How do we even fix this? We’ve extended Billy, maxed Zach etc.
There is a legitimate possibility now that Vooch walks and we get nothing and that Zach requests a trade because of how bad things are.
We really do have another front office that will side with a terrible coach and cost us our players. This is a slow moving train wreck. This situation has disaster written all over it. We legitimately need to get rid of Billy and the front office if they won’t do it. This is absolutely ridiculous. These players are not going to sacrifice their careers for AKME’s fuckups or Billy Donovan’s terrible coaching. Do something or watch them all leave. Give these young guys time under a new coach to really evaluate where they are, but right now Pat and Ayo are costing us games and belong no where near a starting lineup. It’s basically three vs. five and we’re not winning with small lineups that can’t shoot, rebound or pass. And that’s what we got. Billy is such a clown whose is stubborn and not very smart. The players are actively rebelling against him and the front office. Fix it or watch it all fall apart this summer.
Bleachighost
Pwills has made improvements sure, but there are games he played without zach and demar and he has not shown that he can step up
People need to stop making excuses that demar or zach take away possessions from him, he plays way too passive and scared. How many times when he gets the ball, immediately passes it off or takes 2 steps in the paint then just takes a mid range shot. With his size, he should be attempting to take it into the paint. Idc if he fails, he will learn and draw fouls worst case
Ayo, no idea how this dude fell off a cliff after having a solid rookie season but his draft position is now starting to show
Vooch, he isn’t played properly, no one feeds this guy in the paint where he needs to be so he can play effectively, I see this man way too much on the perimeter and just will take 3s
Zach injured but still fell off a cliff performance and iq wise
When demar isn’t dominating, this team struggles hard
Richie77727
The reason we have bad plus minus players is because we’re five games below 500. What else is there to take from this other than the team sucks?
BigCelebration7504
Our + is better with our bench besides Demar. Shows lack of energy from the starters ridiculous
Bradlas3
Pat was definitely a disappointment, I never thought he’d develop like Kawhi Leonard did, but I thought he’d be at least be Luol Deng level
tushuguan
blow it up and build around javonte
YoHoochIsCrazy
I wanna see a lineup of Coby, Demar, Caruso, PWill, and Vuc.
SamsonFitz
Leaders make their teams better, and Lavine is not a leader yet. Still young enough to change and I’m hopeful, but his body language on the court is trash and teammates play off that energy wether they want to or not.
Based on Lavines body language I already see it coming…he thinks he’s a superstar so he’ll request a trade after next season if we aren’t competitive.
hankbaumbach
This is partially why I dislike +/- in and of itself as a means to judge a player’s overall ability.
They are a good measurement of how a player is doing within their role, but a terrible metric for the overall assessment of a player all by themselves.
I like Caruso and Javonte but they are not our two best players overall.
They have been playing the best within their respective roles though and that is something to commend, but I worry people mistake +/- for an assessment of how good a player is instead of what it truly captures which is how good a player is playing at that moment in that role.
jcud23
Feature Pat and Coby more. We see the flashes, they just need consistent roles
The_Wata_Boy
+/- is always skewed against the best defender because they are going against the other team’s best player every night with the your goal being to limit them, because you can’t stop them.
With that being said, I’ve always said Pat Williams needs to be on a team where he’s the guy or at least 1A/1B if you want to see him unlock his potential. He’s a subpar role player on the Bulls and we’re doing nothing to help him get better by making him the 4th/5th option on offense and telling him to chase around the best player on the court for 35 minutes.
We should have either traded him or decided to unload our roster and build around him. What we’re doing now is dumb and the front office needs to make a decision during the offseason.
wpspicer79
djhin2
High effort defenders and our most consistent scorer have the top 4. Not a surprise. And the fact that they all play together in the rotation of course
Foreign_Tangelo
As much as I love love love AC playing for the Bulls this team ain’t it, he needs to get traded for whatever value you can get him. Warriors might still want him after seasons over since GP2 has that severe injury. Hate what this team has become
* Improvements from Ayo, Pat and Coby. A huge improvement from Green if he comes back and performs similarly. * Similar performances from DeMar, Caruso, DJJ, Zach, and Vucevic. * A way worse record.
BurstStream
The Bulls are asking underdeveloped players to play starting minutes and it’s not working.
They need more time.
A1Horizon
Honestly, about what I expected. Although I did think I’d see DeMar down there with the rest of the starters. No individual knock on him but we’ve been killed by opposing starting units.
SwimmingLaddersWings
Plus minus is often irrelevant and what really matters is how well you’ve constructed a roster of players that can complement each other
astrobeen
In almost all sports, it’s not how good your star is, it’s more a question of how bad is your weakest link. Our weakest links are Ayo and Pat as starters. Ayo wasn’t supposed to start this soon – he was supposed to be a 6th man energizer. Pat… well yeah, he’s Pat. They’d be really good off the bench against other 2nd units, but they are killing our starting unit. We lose if our big 3 don’t combine for 85, and that’s just not going to happen every night.
Also Deebo has good numbers because dude just hoops. I’m going to guess Zach’s numbers get better since Zach is healing and D is now the injured one. But that starting lineup gets beat because we are trying to use 2 bench players as starters.
P30A
Knicks fan here stumbled upon this post. I just want to say I think Chicago has two major issues.
The biggest issue to me is Vuce’s defense. Some advanced analytics say he isnt horrible at defending in the paint but the eye test does not agree. He is so limited in defending the paint. Which sucks because he is so good offensively and a good rebounder. Either you need great perimeter defenders to mask that and help Vuce but you dont have enough elite perimeter defenders.
2nd thing is the need for a point guard. I think the bulls should’ve traded for a PG. I think Fred Van Vleet would’ve been a perfect fit or even a short rental PG. I think even Russ can help.
24 Comments
How much of pats +- is him being bad vs him starting alongside a bunch of defensive sieves and having to make up for their shit?
He’s underdeveloped sure, but if he goes anywhere else I guarantee he turns into a mikal bridges type. Our development, coaching, and roster construction is just shit.
I agree Pat has been better by the eye test but it’s still a bit ridiculous to see people bend over backwards to deny the numbers that say he’s just not a very good player.
How do we even fix this? We’ve extended Billy, maxed Zach etc.
There is a legitimate possibility now that Vooch walks and we get nothing and that Zach requests a trade because of how bad things are.
We really do have another front office that will side with a terrible coach and cost us our players. This is a slow moving train wreck. This situation has disaster written all over it. We legitimately need to get rid of Billy and the front office if they won’t do it. This is absolutely ridiculous. These players are not going to sacrifice their careers for AKME’s fuckups or Billy Donovan’s terrible coaching. Do something or watch them all leave. Give these young guys time under a new coach to really evaluate where they are, but right now Pat and Ayo are costing us games and belong no where near a starting lineup. It’s basically three vs. five and we’re not winning with small lineups that can’t shoot, rebound or pass. And that’s what we got. Billy is such a clown whose is stubborn and not very smart. The players are actively rebelling against him and the front office. Fix it or watch it all fall apart this summer.
Pwills has made improvements sure, but there are games he played without zach and demar and he has not shown that he can step up
People need to stop making excuses that demar or zach take away possessions from him, he plays way too passive and scared. How many times when he gets the ball, immediately passes it off or takes 2 steps in the paint then just takes a mid range shot. With his size, he should be attempting to take it into the paint. Idc if he fails, he will learn and draw fouls worst case
Ayo, no idea how this dude fell off a cliff after having a solid rookie season but his draft position is now starting to show
Vooch, he isn’t played properly, no one feeds this guy in the paint where he needs to be so he can play effectively, I see this man way too much on the perimeter and just will take 3s
Zach injured but still fell off a cliff performance and iq wise
When demar isn’t dominating, this team struggles hard
The reason we have bad plus minus players is because we’re five games below 500. What else is there to take from this other than the team sucks?
Our + is better with our bench besides Demar. Shows lack of energy from the starters ridiculous
Pat was definitely a disappointment, I never thought he’d develop like Kawhi Leonard did, but I thought he’d be at least be Luol Deng level
blow it up and build around javonte
I wanna see a lineup of Coby, Demar, Caruso, PWill, and Vuc.
Leaders make their teams better, and Lavine is not a leader yet. Still young enough to change and I’m hopeful, but his body language on the court is trash and teammates play off that energy wether they want to or not.
Based on Lavines body language I already see it coming…he thinks he’s a superstar so he’ll request a trade after next season if we aren’t competitive.
This is partially why I dislike +/- in and of itself as a means to judge a player’s overall ability.
They are a good measurement of how a player is doing within their role, but a terrible metric for the overall assessment of a player all by themselves.
I like Caruso and Javonte but they are not our two best players overall.
They have been playing the best within their respective roles though and that is something to commend, but I worry people mistake +/- for an assessment of how good a player is instead of what it truly captures which is how good a player is playing at that moment in that role.
Feature Pat and Coby more. We see the flashes, they just need consistent roles
+/- is always skewed against the best defender because they are going against the other team’s best player every night with the your goal being to limit them, because you can’t stop them.
With that being said, I’ve always said Pat Williams needs to be on a team where he’s the guy or at least 1A/1B if you want to see him unlock his potential. He’s a subpar role player on the Bulls and we’re doing nothing to help him get better by making him the 4th/5th option on offense and telling him to chase around the best player on the court for 35 minutes.
We should have either traded him or decided to unload our roster and build around him. What we’re doing now is dumb and the front office needs to make a decision during the offseason.
High effort defenders and our most consistent scorer have the top 4. Not a surprise. And the fact that they all play together in the rotation of course
As much as I love love love AC playing for the Bulls this team ain’t it, he needs to get traded for whatever value you can get him. Warriors might still want him after seasons over since GP2 has that severe injury. Hate what this team has become
Looks right to me
Lonzo Ball +/- 0
Last year’s record – 46-36
– Caruso: +110 (+2.7/g)
– Ball: +81 (+2.3/g)
– DeRozan: +77 (+1/g)
– Jones Jr.: +41 (+0.8/g)
– Green: +20 (+0.3/g)
– LaVine: -26 (-0.4/g)
– White: -34 (-0.6/g)
– Vucevic: -52 (-0.7/g)
– Williams: -56 (-3.3/g)
– Dosunmu: -199 (-3.8/g)
Focusing only on plus minus, we have seen:
* Improvements from Ayo, Pat and Coby. A huge improvement from Green if he comes back and performs similarly.
* Similar performances from DeMar, Caruso, DJJ, Zach, and Vucevic.
* A way worse record.
The Bulls are asking underdeveloped players to play starting minutes and it’s not working.
They need more time.
Honestly, about what I expected. Although I did think I’d see DeMar down there with the rest of the starters. No individual knock on him but we’ve been killed by opposing starting units.
Plus minus is often irrelevant and what really matters is how well you’ve constructed a roster of players that can complement each other
In almost all sports, it’s not how good your star is, it’s more a question of how bad is your weakest link. Our weakest links are Ayo and Pat as starters. Ayo wasn’t supposed to start this soon – he was supposed to be a 6th man energizer. Pat… well yeah, he’s Pat. They’d be really good off the bench against other 2nd units, but they are killing our starting unit. We lose if our big 3 don’t combine for 85, and that’s just not going to happen every night.
Also Deebo has good numbers because dude just hoops. I’m going to guess Zach’s numbers get better since Zach is healing and D is now the injured one. But that starting lineup gets beat because we are trying to use 2 bench players as starters.
Knicks fan here stumbled upon this post. I just want to say I think Chicago has two major issues.
The biggest issue to me is Vuce’s defense. Some advanced analytics say he isnt horrible at defending in the paint but the eye test does not agree. He is so limited in defending the paint. Which sucks because he is so good offensively and a good rebounder. Either you need great perimeter defenders to mask that and help Vuce but you dont have enough elite perimeter defenders.
2nd thing is the need for a point guard. I think the bulls should’ve traded for a PG. I think Fred Van Vleet would’ve been a perfect fit or even a short rental PG. I think even Russ can help.