Please let this thread be the definitive discussion of the Jrue situation so that we can finally fucking shut up about it. I know it’s paywalled (you should subscribe though, $1 deal available in Katz’s Twitter feed), so highlights and my dumbass commentary:
> A massive market is about to emerge for Holiday. The LA Clippers have two first-round picks they can trade, along with players. The Miami Heat could piece together the same package they offered for Lillard, and present it to Portland again, this time for Holiday. Imagine trying to score against a defense with Holiday at the top, Jimmy Butler on the wing and Bam Adebayo down low. The New Orleans Pelicans have draft picks and could use a point guard, though Holidayās expensive salary would present financial problems for a team not usually willing to dive into the luxury tax. The Boston Celtics considered a Lillard chase, according to league sources. Why wouldnāt they now go for Holiday?
> It doesnāt stop there. What if the Toronto Raptors, another team that was after Lillard, offered Portland a couple of picks for Holiday? Or if the Golden State Warriors consider him an upgrade on Chris Paul? Or if the Philadelphia 76ers weasel a three-team deal that brings in Holiday and sends James Harden elsewhere? Or if some other wild card, like the Orlando Magic or Indiana Pacers, decide itās time to jump from the bottom of the standings to the middle?
I have no idea why GS would deal CP given what they had to give up to get him and I also have no idea why Denver would want a 100 year-old PG no matter the skill level.
> This might be a good litmus test of how much juice Tom Thibodeau has with Leon Rose. As you said, this is like a player dropping out of Thibsā idea of basketball heaven. An outstanding guard who can cause havoc defensively and still has value on offense ā that just screams Thibs.
Extremely this.
> But let me make the case for yes. Drop Holiday onto the Knicks and they get better. They get their perimeter stopper and supercharge their defense. Thatās no small thing. Quietly, as the offense got better last season, the defense slipped. New York finished 19th in defensive rating last season. It needs to be better if they want to be an Eastern Conference finals contender. Holiday will do that. There are some numbers I can throw your way to talk about Holidayās effect on defense, but the guy has been on first- or second-team NBA All-Defense in five of the last six seasons.
> Heāll also make the Knicks offense better, too. He gives the Knicks another ballhandler and playmaker, though he is a step down from Brunson in that regard. Heās a better 3-point shooter than Barrett and should help provide some much-needed spacing. Heās been a 39.5 percent 3-point shooter in his three seasons in Milwaukee, improving a lot as a catch-and-shooter too.
> The 6-foot-3 Holiday doesnāt play small. I think that the Knicks could survive with Brunson and Holiday together in the backcourt, and the team might become even more physical than it was last season.
> It would take more than just Barrett. And any team after Holiday has to be urgent.
> Based on conversations Iāve had with league sources, I wouldnāt be surprised if a Holiday trade happened soon. Training camp begins Tuesday. There is a world where Holiday never even arrives in Portland.
> But other competitive offers arenāt the only reason a trade would take more than Barrett (as well as Evan Fournier to make the money work). You mentioned the Knicksā long-term plans, but Iām not sure how Barrett would fit into the Blazersā.
> They just drafted Scoot Henderson, a physical, explosive point guard with all the talent in the world and who could become a star, maybe quickly. But if Henderson has a flaw, itās the jumper. Portland wants to surround him with shooters, so he can have space to bash. But Barrett is a slasher, too. And with Deandre Ayton in the middle, the pipes could get clogged.
> If the Knicks join the Holiday sweepstakes, look for them to get creative. They offer two unprotected first-rounders for Holiday and still have enough remaining for a big name next summer. If they were to trade their 2024 first-round selection along with another unprotected first-rounder from an odd-numbered year, then come July when their 2031 pick opens up, they could throw three first-rounders into a trade for a megastar. Maybe all those picks, along with young guys and swaps, would be enough to land this faceless superhero theyāve lusted after for years.
> But if the price becomes too big ā if Portland wants the Knicksā 2028 and 2030 picks, along with Barrett and swap ā **it doesnāt leave enough in the cupboard for the MVP-caliber player New York has waited on**, whether that guy is Joel Embiid or someone else.
(emphasis mine because I stay fucking saying exactly this)
> Thatās what makes this intriguing. Holiday isnāt the type of player who makes the Knicks immediate title contenders, but heās also good enough to make the team better and continue with its long-term goals. The East is getting more competitive, and they should stay with the tide. The benefit may be more than just wins and a deeper playoff run but also sets up the bedrock to attract that next star to New York when the time comes.
Dunno if I agree that a 33 year-old makes the Knicks more of a destination for a future HOF’er…
> Holiday is set to make $36.8 million this season in base salary, plus likely bonuses, and then has a player option for the 2024-25 season when heās set to make about $39.4 million. The presumption is that heād want to go lock in another tidy sum next summer at 34, whether in free agency or through an extension. That weighs on this deal, too. The Knicks will see their books get more complicated over the next few years with a contract decision on Immanuel Quickley and an extension for Brunson that will be much pricier than the current steal of a deal heās on.
Nobody in this sub has been mentioning the elephant in MSG: Quick’s extension
> So, in some ways, itās Barrett and picks or no deal at all, even though that leaves the Knicks, a team with two centers, a conventional power forward and a bunch of guards, even further from employing a rangy wing that they (and every other team in existence) need.
> The on-court impact would be positive. I struggle to see how this deal would make the Knicks worse, especially if the only players dealt are Barrett and Fournier. The Knicks have not had a perimeter or point-of-attack defender like Holiday to pair with Robinson on the back end; the wonders that would do for the defense.
This is obviously correct, but is also facile.
> The question, as it has been for a few years now with the Knicks as theyāve amassed all these good young players and a trove of draft assets, is when they want to deploy them and how many they are willing to trade away. There should be enough here to make the Knicks pursue Holiday, but do they want to?
My answer is no. Jrue is an Isiah Thomas trade. Pass, let somebody else hobble their franchise for 3 years of almost getting to the conference finals.
JonnyGBuckets
The one point I haven’t seen made is that Jrue could help them get to contention this year.
I mean they split the season series with the Celtics, they beat the Nuggets in the regular season 2/3 times, is it possible that they’re just better than people think and Jrue could push them over the edge to true contender status?
In a vacuum replacing RJ with Jrue makes us a much better team on both sides of the ball. A couple things break their way and I think they’re a really good basketball team that is a legitimate ECF or Finals contender.
3 Comments
Why? To be Brunson’s backup?
Please let this thread be the definitive discussion of the Jrue situation so that we can finally fucking shut up about it. I know it’s paywalled (you should subscribe though, $1 deal available in Katz’s Twitter feed), so highlights and my dumbass commentary:
> A massive market is about to emerge for Holiday. The LA Clippers have two first-round picks they can trade, along with players. The Miami Heat could piece together the same package they offered for Lillard, and present it to Portland again, this time for Holiday. Imagine trying to score against a defense with Holiday at the top, Jimmy Butler on the wing and Bam Adebayo down low. The New Orleans Pelicans have draft picks and could use a point guard, though Holidayās expensive salary would present financial problems for a team not usually willing to dive into the luxury tax. The Boston Celtics considered a Lillard chase, according to league sources. Why wouldnāt they now go for Holiday?
> It doesnāt stop there. What if the Toronto Raptors, another team that was after Lillard, offered Portland a couple of picks for Holiday? Or if the Golden State Warriors consider him an upgrade on Chris Paul? Or if the Philadelphia 76ers weasel a three-team deal that brings in Holiday and sends James Harden elsewhere? Or if some other wild card, like the Orlando Magic or Indiana Pacers, decide itās time to jump from the bottom of the standings to the middle?
I have no idea why GS would deal CP given what they had to give up to get him and I also have no idea why Denver would want a 100 year-old PG no matter the skill level.
> This might be a good litmus test of how much juice Tom Thibodeau has with Leon Rose. As you said, this is like a player dropping out of Thibsā idea of basketball heaven. An outstanding guard who can cause havoc defensively and still has value on offense ā that just screams Thibs.
Extremely this.
> But let me make the case for yes. Drop Holiday onto the Knicks and they get better. They get their perimeter stopper and supercharge their defense. Thatās no small thing. Quietly, as the offense got better last season, the defense slipped. New York finished 19th in defensive rating last season. It needs to be better if they want to be an Eastern Conference finals contender. Holiday will do that. There are some numbers I can throw your way to talk about Holidayās effect on defense, but the guy has been on first- or second-team NBA All-Defense in five of the last six seasons.
> Heāll also make the Knicks offense better, too. He gives the Knicks another ballhandler and playmaker, though he is a step down from Brunson in that regard. Heās a better 3-point shooter than Barrett and should help provide some much-needed spacing. Heās been a 39.5 percent 3-point shooter in his three seasons in Milwaukee, improving a lot as a catch-and-shooter too.
> The 6-foot-3 Holiday doesnāt play small. I think that the Knicks could survive with Brunson and Holiday together in the backcourt, and the team might become even more physical than it was last season.
> It would take more than just Barrett. And any team after Holiday has to be urgent.
> Based on conversations Iāve had with league sources, I wouldnāt be surprised if a Holiday trade happened soon. Training camp begins Tuesday. There is a world where Holiday never even arrives in Portland.
> But other competitive offers arenāt the only reason a trade would take more than Barrett (as well as Evan Fournier to make the money work). You mentioned the Knicksā long-term plans, but Iām not sure how Barrett would fit into the Blazersā.
> They just drafted Scoot Henderson, a physical, explosive point guard with all the talent in the world and who could become a star, maybe quickly. But if Henderson has a flaw, itās the jumper. Portland wants to surround him with shooters, so he can have space to bash. But Barrett is a slasher, too. And with Deandre Ayton in the middle, the pipes could get clogged.
> If the Knicks join the Holiday sweepstakes, look for them to get creative. They offer two unprotected first-rounders for Holiday and still have enough remaining for a big name next summer. If they were to trade their 2024 first-round selection along with another unprotected first-rounder from an odd-numbered year, then come July when their 2031 pick opens up, they could throw three first-rounders into a trade for a megastar. Maybe all those picks, along with young guys and swaps, would be enough to land this faceless superhero theyāve lusted after for years.
> But if the price becomes too big ā if Portland wants the Knicksā 2028 and 2030 picks, along with Barrett and swap ā **it doesnāt leave enough in the cupboard for the MVP-caliber player New York has waited on**, whether that guy is Joel Embiid or someone else.
(emphasis mine because I stay fucking saying exactly this)
> Thatās what makes this intriguing. Holiday isnāt the type of player who makes the Knicks immediate title contenders, but heās also good enough to make the team better and continue with its long-term goals. The East is getting more competitive, and they should stay with the tide. The benefit may be more than just wins and a deeper playoff run but also sets up the bedrock to attract that next star to New York when the time comes.
Dunno if I agree that a 33 year-old makes the Knicks more of a destination for a future HOF’er…
> Holiday is set to make $36.8 million this season in base salary, plus likely bonuses, and then has a player option for the 2024-25 season when heās set to make about $39.4 million. The presumption is that heād want to go lock in another tidy sum next summer at 34, whether in free agency or through an extension. That weighs on this deal, too. The Knicks will see their books get more complicated over the next few years with a contract decision on Immanuel Quickley and an extension for Brunson that will be much pricier than the current steal of a deal heās on.
Nobody in this sub has been mentioning the elephant in MSG: Quick’s extension
> So, in some ways, itās Barrett and picks or no deal at all, even though that leaves the Knicks, a team with two centers, a conventional power forward and a bunch of guards, even further from employing a rangy wing that they (and every other team in existence) need.
> The on-court impact would be positive. I struggle to see how this deal would make the Knicks worse, especially if the only players dealt are Barrett and Fournier. The Knicks have not had a perimeter or point-of-attack defender like Holiday to pair with Robinson on the back end; the wonders that would do for the defense.
This is obviously correct, but is also facile.
> The question, as it has been for a few years now with the Knicks as theyāve amassed all these good young players and a trove of draft assets, is when they want to deploy them and how many they are willing to trade away. There should be enough here to make the Knicks pursue Holiday, but do they want to?
My answer is no. Jrue is an Isiah Thomas trade. Pass, let somebody else hobble their franchise for 3 years of almost getting to the conference finals.
The one point I haven’t seen made is that Jrue could help them get to contention this year.
I mean they split the season series with the Celtics, they beat the Nuggets in the regular season 2/3 times, is it possible that they’re just better than people think and Jrue could push them over the edge to true contender status?
In a vacuum replacing RJ with Jrue makes us a much better team on both sides of the ball. A couple things break their way and I think they’re a really good basketball team that is a legitimate ECF or Finals contender.