The past, present and future of the Milwaukee Bucks | The Athletic NBA Show

The past, present and future of the Milwaukee Bucks | The Athletic NBA Show

Hello and welcome to the tampering podcast part of the athletic NBA Show Network I’m Sam Amic NBA national writer at the athletic we got usual suspect Anthony Slater on the west coast we are gonna bring in fellow usual suspect Fred Katz from the East Coast a little bit

Later in the show especially because his old team the Washington Wizards made a coaching change but we will get to that a little bit later uh we’re going to start today this week’s show focusing on the Milwaukee Bucks I’m sure all the NBA hoop heads are shocked to hear that that

Is the focus Adrien Griffin is out Joe prty is in temporarily Doc Rivers around the corner how long is Joe prty in by the way like we’ll get there let me let me bring our guy in let me bring our guy in Slater hold on just kick it right to

Him let’s get we getting there we getting there we got Eric na who Milwaukee Bucks beat Ryder all over the story as always uh always one of my favorites uh Slater you know this Eric you know this one of the funnier parts of my role at the athletic is I feel

Like you know I end up roaming between different teams and markets and so it’s always a pleasure and a joy to work side by side with Eric usually in our experience Eric it’s just been waxing poetic about the greatness of the Milwaukee Bucks or the latest Giannis

Aumo contract extension um this was a little bit different uh we’ve been in the The Trenches so to speak uh the last couple of weeks in the story doing trying to to pump it out uh what’s up brother how are you I’m great uh I could

Use a little bit of sleep but I don’t think that’s really uh in the cards for me uh you know I think we’re going to have a Doc Rivers uh introductory press conference at some point in the next 24 hours uh and then the Bucks are going to

Play again and then I get to go out to the West Coast for a five game trip so uh yeah there is there’s no sleep in my future but that’s okay by the way shout out Doc Rivers man you lined this thing up so so you get

Straight to LA right after you take the job way to go just saying I’m sure it was no coincidence whatsoever uh by the way because I didn’t finish the preview well enough of course for the nonb bucks people non- Wizards people we will talk trade deadline season on the back end of

This pot as well and get into some of the rumor and uh and chatter in Intel there um but Eric um let’s go you know perspective on the decision and how they got here we don’t need to unpack the entire thing because we could honestly do two-hour pod but um I think you’re

Probably comfortable with me throwing it to you in this way and framing it this way a little slice of media life I don’t mind sharing like listen you and I and Sham shiria were well aware that Adria Griffin was in trouble for quite some time it was a bit of an Open Secret

Around the league um and so we were putting together essentially a a reported analysis on that situation and why he faced a fair amount of pressure um you know then the move comes before we can get our story out uh and we had a good old time you know kind of kicking

It into high gear and and honestly for me it was a lot of fun like if you can provide that kind of insight quickly for the readers and the fans it was a grand total of 89 minutes after the news broke we had our story up uh about you know

Why they did what they did uh but now that we are in h audio form here on the Pod why don’t you tell people why they did what they did why why is Adrien Griffin out and Doc Rivers in I mean to me I just think it’s they didn’t meet expectations that’s

Where it starts um you look at this team and yes they do have the second best record in the league they were 30 and 13 when Adrien Griffin gets fired uh but you don’t have to go all that far back in their schedule to look and be like

Huh that doesn’t look quite right a a 141 135 win over the Pistons that doesn’t look a win is a win Eric uh and you know a trademark of the Adrien Griffin era was reminding us that wins are hard to come by in the NBA and every

Win is valuable um but it was clear that that just wasn’t good enough for this team that when when you look at what this team is trying to do the level at which they’re trying to win this is a team that has really not been shy at all about

Telling the world that the expectation is a championship that’s why Mike booner was gone that’s why they needed to find a new coach that’s why you make the trade for Damen Lillard like all everything is building towards the championship that’s the only way a season is a success uh and not a failure

At the end of the year is you go out there and you win a championship so that’s the expectation and they just got to a point where they have one of the worst defensive months in I mean since I’ve been covering the team I mean they

Were 28th in defense in the first 11 games in January they were giving up 130 every night they were just getting blown out of the water and the the mistakes that you would see were just I I mean I mean I the final game of the Adrien Griffin era you know Chris Middleton

Makes a jumper in the fourth quarter fourth quarter 10 minutes left makes a jumper uh they run down the floor and they don’t know who they have and they give up a layup to Isaiah Stewart and this is not an isolated incident like this is like a Once a Night type of

Thing that occurs with the Milwaukee Bucks and you’re just thinking like how how does that happen like those those aren’t M those are mistakes that in high school games and even good high school teams don’t have those mistakes happen like how is this happening again and

Again and again and it just got to a spot where it was too much for the organization and then that’s not even going into all of the Dynamics that you know you and I have been talking about for the last month right the the idea that you know Damen Lillard’s still

Trying to figure out how he works in Milwaukee what his role is in Milwaukee making sure that he feels appreciated in Milwaukee like he’s used to being the man and now he has to you know be the number two guy next to Giannis and that’s been an adjustment

And it hasn’t gone particularly smooth on the offense and even though they are the second best offense in the league uh it just hasn’t looked great on it and and you just kind of add all of these things up and I think you just got to a spot where that locker room really

Wasn’t sure what they were doing on a night toight basis they were trying to find their identity they weren’t sure of of the schemes and it didn’t feel like the schemes were putting them in a particularly good place on either end of the ball uh you know Adrien Griffin

Wasn’t able to communicate his vision for the team all that well and you just you just get to a spot where the second best team in the league from a record perspective just doesn’t know who they are and that seems Seems really difficult 41 games into a season th this

Also to me outside looking in at least um seems like it stems back to the Summer where he does not appear to be in a unanimous hire organizationally right um and some ways uh and you guys can can color this in more than me see SC was

Like a Giannis hire you know part of um the pitch to get him to sign which he did by the way so that’s a success uh and then now it seems like to me especially with you know some of the quotes coming out of there some of the

Stories I’ve read from you Eric over the last couple months it’s like Yannis seemed to be kind of turning his eye like you know this isn’t going well and if you lose the person who seemed to be most uh you know the biggest the loudest

Backer of your hire then who do you have and that that’s what it seemed like to me like the contractors the contract and and the Optics are the Optics like that was maybe a hindrance but it didn’t just just didn’t seem to me like there was

Anybody you know loudly saying hey no we can’t do this right now well but Eric before you you kind of jump in I’ll add in Slater that’s all on point also the timeline wise it’s just a massive factor that that the Lillard trade happened after Adrien was hired you know when he

Was when he was hired this was not part of the calculus the stakes get raised the the intensity and the pressure in the room goes up when you have Dam Lillard you cannot get a player of that caliber and not have it be sunshine and rainbows during the regular season the

Playoffs are going to come and you hope to achieve your goals there but man everybody envisioned pick and roll Heaven incredible dynamic duo and all of a sudden to a degree it felt like there was well Dame’s nice but he’s one of the guys with Chris Middleton and Malik

Beasley and maybe even campaign and I think that’s at times the way he saw it it just didn’t pop like people thought it would can I actually add one more thing we’re just adding off of each other I wanted to make’s here what welcome buddy I wanted to make sure that

Eric speaks as little as possible on this podcast so I do just want to jump in with one thing Eric I want to get your perspective on something for Real uh because because because Sam you mentioned that the higher came before they made the Lillard trade and the

Beginning of the year the Bucks bust out this completely different type of Defense from how they were running you know under Mike buher right and Brook Lopez is straying all the way to like the Canadian border in order to defend pick and rolls and he’s just totally not

Bought in and and their their defense is floundering and you mentioned the transition defense stuff but especially you can’t think like a small Wisconsin town to to going to is too close is too close green Bay maybe no that’s too close he was going all the way to the Canadian border that’s where

He was going which is like probably in the middle of one of the Lakes but he was probably pretty close how far he was swimming he was swimming they they ran up they ran up a swim coverage but anyway I don’t even remember what I’m saying right now no defense they Chang

The defense yeah so so what I was curious about is they they they they run these different coverages and you look at the coverages and you’re like why in the world are you running this with this personnel and they obviously do it for four or five games and then Griffin

Famously just changes it back to what they were doing under Bud after they went through a whole training camp learning all this new stuff and the whole beginning of the season to learn all these new this new stuff and kind of felt to me almost like he had this idea

Of like all right well we have drew holiday who’s awesome so let’s see if we can utilize him even more aggressively and then once holiday left and the composition of the roster completely changed none of the strategies changed she was just like here’s what we’re doing and we’re just going to stick this

Is what we do now H how much of his inability to to adjust in all of those ways like where where did that come from how did the organization view it um is that like the root of all of this is it is it a root of all of this yeah I mean

I think it’s certainly it’s appropriate that you use the Canadian border uh because the the worst part of that was a game in Toronto fourth game of the season Toronto is not good offensively to start the year and the Bucks just get run out of the building Brook Lopez gets

Benched for the fourth quarter he’s not playing and everyone there is just like that dude is the runner-up to Defensive Player of the Year and he’s just getting benched because he’s in a scheme that doesn’t make any sense and it gets to a spot where like the players literally

Have to tell Griff like hey we no we we got to we got to stop man like put Brooke by the rim but it it’s it’s an interesting route because one you’re you’re correct in thinking like oh maybe it would have worked out better with Drew holiday I still think it Brook

Lopez trapping and blitzing is a disaster that’s a terrible idea no matter what but when you look at the Bucks defense to this day everyone else is still running or I I shouldn’t say that we’ll see what happens when stock Rivers gets in town but up until this

Point 43 games into the season everybody else is still running the other defense the only change that they’ve made is Brooke you just do your thing Giannis is still switching Bobby poris is still up trapping at the level blitzing and every team in the league

Knows it Bobby had a bunch of steals in the first part of the year in January he played 224 minutes he had three Steals and he was blitzing every pick and roll it seems impossible to Blitz and trap that much and only get three steals in that much time because everyone in the

League knew all they had to do was dribble out to half court swing it over and the Bucks defense was totally broken down so I I I think when you put it all together I the the Dame trade’s huge from an expectation standpoint but also from the idea that Adrien Griffin was

Coaching one team and then three days before training camp he gets informed that he’s coaching an entirely different team and and I think offensively they didn’t really catch up I know they didn’t catch up defensively uh but since Dame is so talented offensively like they can survive on that end like they

They have so much talent offensively that it’ll be fine there but defensively they just never figured it out so I think it was it may have been doomed from the start but I do think you just pile up all of these things that you know as Sam

And Shams and I were talking about right in the story Sam would be like oh we got to focus on this thing and I’d be like yeah but also there’s this other thing that we need to talk about and then Shams would pop and be like well we

Should actually talk about this thing and it was just all of these things going wrong at the same time and I think eventually it got to a convergence where it was like it there’s simply too much going wrong to that point Eric I I couldn’t agree more I think honestly

It’s funny to be critical of us on the written side of things if we had more time this is one of those stories like it was time to bust out some sub headlines you know what I mean like we needed chapters like you know offense Dame defense uh expectations being Rays

The Jimmy Haslam Factor the Giannis Factor there was this kind of Gumbo that didn’t taste very good for Adrien Griffin that led to the decision I do though guys want to go ahead and spin it Forward because uh shout out to the guys from nerder she wrote Dave duor and Seth

Part now and mod toil yesterday I thought also did a really good job breaking down you know how the buck bucks got to this point um I want to talk about Doc Rivers and how we you know see his possible impact here we can

Get into a little bit of how he got here you know we obviously reported that um he was an informal consultant for Adrian going as far back as Vegas uh I actually said hello to Doc real briefly before the uh the the game where the Bucks were

Eliminated by the Pacers which now is is just kind of a funny moment in time as he was kind of cruising through as an ESPN analyst um but listen even as far back as then there was you know folks’s uh eyebrows getting raised when when this news got around that doc was

Talking to Adrian talking to the bucks at the behest of the bucks um it’s just never a great sign now listen it doesn’t always turn out like this like when uh Jeff Van Gundy was Consulting for Joe Missoula in Boston there were similar chatter like oh boy that’s probably the

Next coach and then that didn’t happen you know in this instance it did happen and so then shocker when the news breaks about Adrian getting fired it takes about 30 seconds for everybody to be hearing that the doc is likely going to be the guy and the wheels were in motion

Far before the news broke um but basketball-wise uh you know how different of a look is this going to be locker room confidence uh you know we all know that the doc is he’s a championship coach who now you it’s fine scrutiny is is deserved it’s a little

Bit of I heard I think one of the guys on the Pod yesterday saying that there’s a little dust on that on that 2008 Celtics title uh you can’t just kind of lean on that forever um and and Doc didn’t get it to where he wanted it to

Go and Philly didn’t get it to where he wanted it to go with the Clippers uh this is a great opportunity for him what do you think yeah I mean I think it’s again as you’re going through the problems I think some of the Tactical

Stuff is not maybe easy to fix but just there there’s some core tenants of what the Bucks were doing defensively that just didn’t make any sense they they are one of the worst offensive rebounding teams in the league in Adrian Griffin still had his guys crashed in the glass

And it just doesn’t make any sense you don’t need any extra points you’re already second in offense like just have everyone get back and make sure that your transition defense is solid and their transition defense has been terrible the entire season so something as simple as that just saying all right

No one’s crashing the glass anymore Giannis if you’re down there that’s great Brooke if you’re down there that’s great everybody else get back and just get set up and build a wall and this is like pretty simple basic basic stuff but the numbers in the film would suggest

That that is going to help the Bucks defense like just doing that will help the Bucks defense move from somewhere around 20 to maybe somewhere around 15 if they can just execute something like that that simple and that’s I think a do river thing too right like his his teams get back they

Don’t guys where’s where do you feel like where’s the ceiling defensively what’s a reasonable expectation in terms of defensive rating for this team to like what number would have kept Adrien Griffin safe you know what I mean I I think 15 I I think the fact that they

Were down in the 20s and just could never get out of there um to me to me I think the Bucks are aware of their changes in Personnel like talking to people around the team they know that the formula is different like and I’ve written this and I’ve said this multiple

Places but like the Bucks used to be a great defensive team that would score enough points they are now a great offensive team that that’s looking for enough stops like it it’s a fundamental change in who they are but the Bucks are aware of this so it’s not that they

Expect the the team to still be John horse does not think this is a top five defense that’s underperforming to 22 you thinks this is you know a 10 to 15 defense that hopefully playoff times like the Nuggets did last year can get just good enough on defense that the

Buckets will win out and they can win that way uh in the playoffs so which by the can I just I mean I know they lost Drew holiday who’s very good and I know like Damen Lillard is not good on defense but like they have Brook Lopez

Who’s been like a top three Defensive Player of the Year guy the last years and Giannis who’s has has Giannis won a defensive player just top two yeah he did okay so yeah that’s you know me and Sam you know we we were around the king’s plenty where we’re looking at their defensive

Personnel like how do they get to 15 right and it’s like I think they would kill for the bucks defense want give him one of those guys on defense yeah exactly so it’s like yeah you should be able to be at least damn top 15 with Brook Lopez and Giannis

If even if Sam amix guarding the wings Eric hey come on now Eric how muchal speed Eric how much will their defense be helped by them just getting matched up a normal amount in transition because like with them it’s not just the it’s not just the fast breaks that they give

Up all the time it’s it’s that what happens is they end up with a small picking up a big and a big pick up a small and a middle picking up a huge and whatever and and and then they just get exploited in the half court like if

Let’s say they they get to a normal level of picking guys up in transition like where are they on defense you think like I said like just executing transition defense and not even being good at it like just doing the basic things I think brings them from 22 to 15

And and this was one thing that you you know Sam mentioned Seth part now before from the from the nerder Pod like Seth and I wrote about the defense two weeks ago and every time I kept trying to push Seth to be like hey can we talk about

This thing in the half court he was like no we can’t because they’re not matched up they’re not doing things right in transition like I can’t even describe their halfcourt defense because I so rarely see it set like I it’s just it’s such a disaster in trans transition that

I can’t even break down the half court so that’s why again like I understand the the critiques of Doc Rivers I understand you know the playoff record and you know maybe he’s not going to have the the best adjustments but I do think you saw this team have a lot of

Success with an elite system builder in Mike buer Mike buer is among the best of this is the system this how we do it we’re going to get the job done and then in the playoffs okay maybe the adjustments aren’t there as you need them

I I think Doc Rivers can do a very similar job like I think he can come in he can get this stuff set up and just run this stuff right during the regular season and then in the playoffs yeah we’re gonna have some stuff to figure out and I’m gonna have some adjustments

To make and maybe it won’t work out but think about what you just said though you just literally said that they’re back to the the boen Holzer calculus hey I I understand I mean that’s because because they just re Mike buer by the way was that completely off compartmentalized I think so

Compartmentalize the Celtics title and Doc’s got stuff of his own to prove here like you’ve got a a very large sample size of playoff struggles um which is exactly what the Bucks were trying to get away from in the first place 100% so again like as you said you’re kind of

Going back to whatever that is but I think you were worried about even getting there this time around like with with Adrian Griffin and the problems that he had that I think you’re even concerned about getting to the spots in the playoffs where you could be

Considered a team that you know comes up short or doesn’t live up to expectations or whatever that might be like I think that was the bigger concern so so you try to get to that spot and and I think one thing that I haven’t talked about yet is it’s going to be really

Interesting to see Sam we were talking about this a little bit before we started recording but like you know one of the things that I believe doc has is uh a level of Gravitas whatever you to say that like he can he can talk to Stars he has that on his resume that

He’s coached star-laden teams and he can talk to them and maybe the Stars don’t like the things that he says all that often and they don’t like being coached by him that much but I think there’s as you mentioned s there’s probably some tough conversations that need to happen

With Damen Lillard with Giannis stumbo and getting them on the same page and I don’t know that those conversations were really happening under Ain and again I don’t know that they’re going to go well under doc well we also don’t know what direction they’re going

To go and we again let’s let’s dig a Little Deeper there what I said offir was last I checked doc didn’t exactly thrive in an environment when he had an All-Star guard and an All-Star big man trying to figure out whose damn team it was um he told James Harden to get the

Hell out of the way for Joel embiid and to feed the big man and he did and Joelle was MVP and then ultimately James resented it because a it didn’t pan out in the playoffs and James you know took a lot of criticism and then he bounced I

Don’t know what Doc is going to tell is he going to stick to the same script and you know I mean shoot you know if you think I mean Joel and Giannis are are on that same level and Giannis is more accomplished so uh logic would tell you

That he’s gonna once again tell the guard to feed the big man uh except that that you know Dame I don’t think would would love that conversation so I don’t know what direction that’s going to go but but that that parallel is fascinating yeah I I think it’s one of

The bigger questions leading into this is one as we reported in our story like Dame has been frustrated throughout the year with his role and if you’re looking through like you know top priorities yeah number one priority figure out the defense fix that and the team’s going to

Be better but the the lower level the the bubbling kind of things the tough interpersonal Dynamic type of things superar Dynamics the human Superstar Dynamics underneath it is like making Giannis and Dame work and to be clear Giannis is having an MVP season Dame is putting up big numbers as well like I

Know I was talking to Fred last week about filling out an All-Star ballot and it’s like yeah Dame is one of the the guards that you should be talking about in the Eastern Conference whether or not he he gets elected uh you know Thursday night but like he should be one of the

People that you’re talking about he’s putting up that type of season it’s not a Dame Lillard season that you saw in Portland but it’s been very good but there still isn’t that that connection between those two guys there isn’t that cohesiveness for the offense overall that yes number one is figure out the

Defense but then below that you got to figure out how to make Giannis and Dame work better Fred you have thoughts and I want to get it to you but real fast let’s not forget guys and Eric we’ve talked about this on the air uh Dame

Lillard had one team on on his list of desired destinations it was Miami Heat he did not get sent where he wanted to go he then played ball cuz Milwaukee look like a good option um it is mid January in Milwaukee I’m not even trying

To be funny this dude is from the Bay Area he’s from a place where the sunshine is out quite a bit he spent a lot of time in Portland which has rain might as well be talking about me because I was in Milwaukee for three

Days and I’m also from the Bay Area uh and it was minus8 and I was like walking down to uh you know the team Hotel about four blocks uh and I was like yeah you know I’ll just walk it I don’t need to Uber that right my face was like hurting

When I got into the lobby like it my ears had to like dethaw it was like extremely painful and so I mean yeah here’s my weak attempt at Analog an analogy if you got a buddy who like he wants you to come to some party he’s thrown you don’t really feel like going

There’s some people there he would like you to meet you’re doing him a favor and you might have a little fun you know for your friend who you care about so you go ahead and you go to the party you show up at the party and like nobody hands

You a drink nobody’s asking you if you want appetizers you’re in the corner and you’re not getting you know the typee of treatment that you think you go outside on the patio and your your mustach is freezing and you start screaming give me the damn ball I want to go back to

Portland uh or Miami like those things are real like we need to continue monitoring like how Damien got to Milwaukee Fred I was just curious is something else coming here like you still have a whole assistant coaching St staff that was not hired by doc do you see him they

Obviously lost Harry STS at the beginning of the year that could have been a big presence who knows how the Adrian Griffin thing goes if Terry STS doesn’t choose to quit by the way that’s also probably why the Adrien Griffin thing went where it did is because of

Terry stots right oh yeah I mean no no question that obviously at least was a a sign that things are were about to go Ary the fact that Terry STS quit before the season even start but like is Terry stots the head coach of the Milwaukee

Bucks right now if he doesn’t quit but anyway my question is is Doc is Doc gonna bring in somebody else is he gonna bring in like a a an assistant associate head coach with some kind of some kind of Gusto to be next to him who’s out

There I mean I think part of the problem is if you are one of those assistants and you’ve been on Doc staff for a while like think of um Sam cazelle right Sam Sam Cassell has been doc sky for forever uh you’re about to start a season

You need a job so you go get one like so so you go to Boston and you know if this was if this happened before the season and the Bucks have decided to hire doc yeah I don’t think Sam Cassell goes to Boston and instead he’s a member of the

Milwaukee Bucks coaching staff but he has a job and a a lot of those people already do so like you have to start thinking about the guys that that don’t have jobs right like you know Dave Jagger’s a name that’s been mentioned and it’s like yeah that could happen

Because like it it makes sense right like that’s someone that isn’t currently employed by another team I think it’s really hard in season to pull someone out of that situation as an assistant coach to get them to come to Milwaukee so um I think the Bucks are going to

Work on it I think Doc is gonna try to hopefully get some more of those people but also at this point in the year it’s it’s a really tough spot I the Jagger name is good Dave duor mentioned it in the chat um I I would be you know

Surprised if that didn’t happen uh and honestly if you hire doc I mean he’s Doc Rivers like you know misgivings and all he typically gets what he wants in these types of situations so that’ll be the other interesting Milwaukee Dynamic like Slater you joke about you know uh having

Been there and seeing the cold I mean Doc’s gonna have his own ver doc likes golfing in La that’s what doc likes like if I’m Trucking my ass out to Milwaukee to come coach this team I’m damn sure gonna get who I want go to Marquette so fair

Saying he never been and they do they do call Shaban the Las Vegas of Wisconsin they also say that’s where Brook Lopez has to get out to on his pick and roll way farther way farther that was uh that was young doc River Slater that was at Marquette you

Know you’re right you’re right right this is a dude who’s been doing this for a long time um so the Jagger name you know Austin Rivers uh you know you know in terms I mean what do you think about that Eric they could use a little help

Again shout out stuff that was talked about on the nerder Pod but you know the idea that that maybe Austin gets pulled out of his uh ESPN life and his unemployment at the moment um you know any any chatter about that to this point

Yeah again I I think as you said uh you know they’re paying what doc 40 mil over the next three years like it’s pretty clear that doc has them in a position where he’s going to get some things that he wants um he did that with his salary

He did that with his job he did that with three years on top of this half of year like they’re going to try um and as you can tell from a team pain three coaches roughly 25 million um like next year they they they have the pockets for

It like with Jimmy hasum in the mix now like they they have an ownership group that’s willing to go for it so yeah I mean I think they’re two interesting names and we’ll see kind of how it all shakes out um because I I think on top

Of wanting to do that I I think the Bucks also need to work quickly here um this is this is a situation where they’re going to play the Cavs on Friday they have a back-to-back with the Pelicans on Saturday uh they leave for a five-game western conference road trip

Uh they they play Denver on Monday so uh they they leave for the road on Sunday so this stuff no matter what’s going to happen it’s got get moving because they gota they got to go out and win some games right it’s Championship expectations like you got to keep it

Rolling Eric you got to go to a Doc Rivers press conference I believe am I correct uh I don’t know if I gotta do one today but uh at some point I will oh man you’re messing up my segue I was just trying to get you out I mean I I

Was trying to you know I was I was invited at that party you know and I was just trying to get treated the way that I wanted I was expecting invite for a little bit longer but no I’m I’m gonna get out of here see you guys you’re welcome to stay we’re just

Gonna I’m leaving no I’m leaving I don’t appreciate the way I’ve been treated give Eric The Rock his usage rate is too low all right man thank you for the Insight that was great uh great job in this story uh if if the fans somehow

Don’t know you got to read Eric all the time when all things bucks absolutely dominates that beat uh not only when it comes to the news and drama like this but the actual B bball just incredible analysis on a consistent basis thank you brother for joining and we will talk to

You soon all right Gentlemen let’s keep it moving here uh Fred in a past life you covered the Washington Wizards uh the Washington Wizards made themselves a choice here on this Thursday morning uh I woke up to these tweets and texts and all the above uh West unel Jr uh a

Couple years in uh is now moving to a front office advisory role you know we know that that that team has obviously been floundering they they didn’t have expectations coming in and I’m curious to hear how you unpack this because you know in in STK contrast to a Milwaukee

Buck situation where it’s it’s really not hard and complicated to see why there was pressure um this is extremely different more nuanced uh more complicated uh what kind of clarity if any do you have on on why they made this choice I thought that this has been

Inevitable for a long time and I don’t think it’s because of the Wizard’s record even though I do think that organization probably thought it would be a little bit better coming into this season than they ended up being but let’s go through the timeline so sometime over the summer

Shortly after last season ends the Wizards fire Tommy Shepard who was previously their team president and they clear out part though not all of the front office and and along with the news that the Wizards are firing Tommy Shepard another piece of news comes out as well whoever gets hired will not be

Allowed to pick their new head coach West unel Jr is staying in as head coach now Ted leonis who is the owner of the Wizards puts a very large emphasis on local ties puts a very large emphasis on organizational ties and while I believe that Wes unel Jr put in his time

As an assistant coach was ridiculously well-respected as an ass system coach the Wizards were not the first place that he ever got ahe coaching interview when he got that job everybody raved with him part of the reason that leonis was so sold on him was because of the

Romanticism of having Wes unsell Jr the son of maybe the greatest player in franchise history the only Finals MVP in franchise history the only MVP in franchise history having his son as the coach of the team especially when West Jr started off as as an advanced Scout

And then an assistant coach with the Wizards themselves uh and I think it’s putting everybody involved at a disadvantage when seconds after the news comes out that you’re hiring a new lead executive in your front office and they didn’t just hire a new lead exec they brought in Michael

Winger and they also brought in Will Dawkins as GM they brought in Travis schlank I I I think it’s putting everybody involved at a disadvantage when it’s immediately known before you hire whomever you want there’s no way you’re picking your own coach and at that point the clock is just

Going to be ticking on that guy and it’s going to set back your process I think that’s kind of what happened here pretty much any front office who comes in is gonna want to pick their own coach uh and I I don’t think this was a case of

Wes doing some sort of horrific job I don’t think this was a case of something happening with the team that made them say we have to move on I mean I think the team underperformed in terms of the way that they wanted to lose like I think they expected more out of Jordan

Pool I think they expected more disciplin play I don’t think they expected this defense to be as bad as it was and I think there were elements to wanting to move on from him but I think this was inevitable maybe it wasn’t inevitable to happen on Thursday January

25th but it was inevitable to happen at some point this is just how these things tend to go when an owner says you’re not allowed to choose your own head coach until you are by the way the uh Will Dawkins and Michael Winger Oklahoma City Thunder you know backgrounds Brian Keefe

Thunder background came in as an assistant where you say you know you don’t pick your head coach well sometimes you pick your lead assistant coach and the guy who’s G to be tapped on the shoulder when the time comes um what he’s there you immediately announce that he’s the guy for the rest

Of the season yeah yeah which mean I mean he’s gonna have a crack at the actual job yeah clearly um and it’s you know like at least part of you know you say set back their process I do think part like they didn’t necessarily because I think part of hiring them was

Like you got some time right it was like they’re finally doing the full rebuild um I don’t think they feel panicked this isn’t a panic move it was the inevitable move you set that up uh you know in like a correct framing but um yeah and then

The whole and I think this is it’s good context for you on the whole West un cell West sell Junior thing because it wasn’t fired goodbye right it’s it’s stay with the organization at least for now so indeed I also I also leonis is not necessarily known for for paying people

Out to leave as well that’s another part of it too which is why you do the transition then you bring up the you will be going to the Georgetown game tomorrow to scout college prospects because you have a paycheck sir exactly like that feels a little bit this is a

Front office thing but you know Larry Riley back in the day when the warriors were reshing their front office you know you guys that you like and respect and especially who have that kind of History uh family history with the franchise Optics wise PR wise with the fans a wise

Move I think to have Wes you know move into that role um all right good stuff guys uh isn’t it funny though by the way just as a quick commentary that you know the difference between high-profile reporting and Analysis on those teams like the Milwaukee Bucks and then

Admittedly um the way that we we handle some teams that are that are just on a different tier you know what I mean like we’re not going to have 3,000 words coming on inside the uh the West unel Junior decision speak for yourself Fair speak for your damn self

That read jhins go read Josh Robbins you not true next guy what do you know about low profile Mr Nick P rer get out of here can I can I say one thing you got time to talk to us Fred because you got your own Nick pod that also is a

Reflection of you know the high-profile team that you cover you you don’t know that life anymore cats and shoot you can subscribe at patreon.com cats and shoot but so I I am I just want to say I don’t think we have any idea what kind of Coach Wes

Untold Jr is what kind of head coach he is uh I just I I don’t think he ever really got an opportunity to coach a real team they got off to that really hot start a couple of years ago a 10 and three and everything fell off but the

Culture on that team from a players perspective was really off like I I have heard like for example that year they have Montres Herold in their locker room and they and Harold was good for them on the court and I am telling you I can’t

Remember the last time I heard a team so excited to trade somebody away they were like the only objective for the trade deadline is you have to trade away montra Herold because what’s the disorganization that’s happening in this locker room associated with him right now and there’s a reason they traded him

For ish Smith who is like the ultimate beloved locker room leader who had been in that organization twice before and then a third time because they were like we just need the biggest upgrade there I don’t think that was that was a um I don’t think that was a West unel I don’t

Think that was West un’s fault you have the entire Bradley Beal situation hovering over everything you have Beal’s injuries hovering over everything you have a a team that’s that’s one foot in one foot out you know would constantly chase the eight seed now that it’s the

Playin we’ll chase the 10 seed in order to try to make it work you’ve had them Miss on draft picks I mean that Johnny Davis pick is is one of the looking like one of the most disappointing lottery picks of in recent history in terms of

The fact that like he is just not even getting a chance to see the see the court uh so like this was not a good situation for him and then you get this team which is not even necessarily A rebuilding team they’re in like the pre- rebuild they’re in the pre-build right

Where like they’re they’re they’ve got these guys who like aren’t necessarily going to be part of the future other than maybe a Corey kispert or Denny AIA they’ve got these guys who aren’t going to be part of their future but are just kind of like there in the meantime you

Know Marvin baggley who’s just there in the meantime and and it’s just this conglomeration of players that is really difficult to mesh together I I have no idea what kind of head coach W Sun got out yeah he got out cleaner than Adrien Griffin is is a way that I would put it

You know Adrien had the Optics and the stuff that went on I think it’s gonna be you know hard for him to get another head coaching job and and Wes didn’t you know come out battered and bruis like that um also Slater you how I kind of challenged Fred like that we weren’t

Unpacking enough and then he just do my God I’m sorry Fred I’m sorry good job now relax we’re moving on to the trade deadline nobody cares anymore about the Wizards just being honest umh I don’t have so here here’s my my two cents on the trade deadline and then

We’re gonna get to the OKC segment um you know we we’re doing this Carousel thing of all the same names kind of going around in a circle all the same teams tied to those names uh waiting to see how things unfold obviously Terry roier goes from Charlotte to Miami

That’s an impact move that I think is going to help them and makes some dangerous uh you know more so than before I like that move um this week and I didn’t come out admittedly with with any you know hardcore Intel on this story or or or Clarity but I I was

Around the Hawks for two games they were in Sacramento they were in San Francisco last night um you know dejonte Murray uh for one it’s just fascinating to see uh his Vibe with the team he’s widely known to be just a super mature professional guy and so uh before the Kings game he

Comes off the court from his pregame warm-up uh Hawks GM Landry Fields is uh he and I are actually talking and so he’s standing in dejon’s way as he’s going through the tunnel and dejonte comes behind him and in my experience guys who are you know whose names are

Out there who are widely known to be probably on the move like the the vibe gets a little uncomfortable with their team gets a little weird but n deante he comes behind Landry and like literally grabs him by the shoulders and is damn near giving him a massage saying hello

Um and then kind of looks him in the eye and says let’s get a w and it really struck me and and if nothing else clarified the fact that like this is a this is a very healthy uh communication between dejon and the Hawks I think it’s

A very clear objective that both parties are all in on which is I think the jante is ready to go and I think the Hawks are trying to find the move that works for them I was going to say after he told Landry let’s go out and get that W they

Proceeded to go out and lose by like 20 to drop to 18 and 26 right I mean they have no Trey young he he he in concussion protocol and it was ugly and I don’t know there’s so there’s a lot of scouts at these Hawks games which makes

Sense also there is can I say though quick yeah yeah yeah uh they’re the 10 seed the East bottom of that East is so bad that they’re like you know they’re in they’re in the Wizard’s dream spot according to Fred cats but uh not that should not change their trade deadline

Direction but you know it should not no and I don’t think it will uh I I still you know the noise about Deon to the Lakers continues to be louder than than any other possible landing spot with but with with hurdles right like you know it it’s clear the Hawks don’t have interest

In D’Angelo Russell um and so then it’s a matter of is there a third team that will take him there’s you know there’s some shatter that the Lakers have explored um the idea of of getting off of D’Angelo now for an expiring to to like you know remove that obstacle but

If you you know if you have a team that is saying well that’s fine we’ll give you the expiring but you got to give us a pick twoo well that defeats the purpose because you can’t lose those assets that you need to to then turn and

Get dejon out of Atlanta so I don’t know how it’s gonna finish um but you know I also that there’s this like sense of inevitability that dejon is gonna eventually have a Lakers jersey on I’m I’m also really curious to see how because the Hawks is not just Landry

Fields anymore right like they’re bring in Chris Grant now to that front office y I’m really curious to know how Chris I mean he’s he’s a he’s a veteran exact he’s run teams used to run the Cavs he’s a Spurs guy Landry was a Spurs guy I I’m

I’m really curious to know yeah I’m I’m I’m really curious to know how that’s going to change their approach to everything because the the reality of the situation is it’s not like Deon Murray is an upcoming free agent it’s not like he’s even a free agent in 2025

He just extended and the Hawks don’t necessarily have to trade him right now like it’s not like oh no if we don’t trade him right now then all of a sudden his value is gonna plummet because there’s not enough time left on his contract this summer and I feel like

There’s a world where if the offers come in too slim where they wait until the summer when it’s easier to make trades because teams have cap room and extra draft picks open up and all that kind of stuff I I just I would be surprised from

What I am hearing about how the Hawks are negotiating I would be surprised if they just took whatever the best offer was on February 8th no matter what you know what I mean like I I think if it there isn’t an offer up to their standards I could see them I could see

Them making other moves but I could see them holding on to him into the summer and then revisiting this in the summer like Sam Sam do you Sam you’re giving me a look like you maybe disagree I think there’s I I don’t have total Clarity so full disclosure but I

Think uh you know deante being a clutch Sports client um I think there’s a fair amount of it feels like there’s pressure um you know I don’t know that the the chummy Vibe is there before that Kings game if uh if this is going to be his basketball existence for the next you

Know for the remainder of the Season by the way I also think sorry real briefly I think culturally it is what it is you can agree disagree that they continue to lean into the Trey young experience um and if I was in their shoes I think on

The ownership side you got to get back to finding a way to let him cook and at least entertain fans in that kind of like Nona title contending way but that does put butts in seats and and and have a little more fun in the building

Instead of they were not a fun group right now they the dynamic internally is clearly like Purgatory as they wait to see what’s going to happen here I also think the money incentive is something to monitor within this too where you’re right you could take it to the off

Season but but I think part of the appeal now is if you get expiring now you get off the money uh you know the the the hope would be expiring with assets particularly draft assets yeah well the other thing that never defitely which is why I say if it’s not him I

Wouldn’t be surprised if there were other Hawks moves yeah for sure like you know since I was at that Kings game you know they were tied to Clint capella years ago and I I was looking at that going damn he would he would actually help them right now so who knows uh and

I’m not hearing that but you know capella now the one thing uh obviously they’re very excited about Jaylen Johnson that that’s something they got going for them um a pick that that Landry and I think Landry was working under Travis lank when that pick was made that pick is paying off um so

They’re trying to Pivot they they have some stuff that they like um but yeah uh you know I agree there’s other guys on that team too DeAndre hunter that could be on the way out DeAndre Hunter is kind of the new John Collins yeah feel like

Feel like everyone who who calls about I feel like I could call about DeAndre Hunter and they’d be like oh yeah you want to back up Nick’s beat Rider let’s talk let’s see if we can match salaries like they I feel like anyone can call about DeAndre Hunter and that’s another

Way to get off salary because he’s got he’s got four more years left including this one he makes like 20 mil this year so that’s another way to get get off of salary I’m curious to see like I don’t know Sam what do you know about bdon bogdanovich because because he’s on he’s

Having a really good year he’s a really nice player he doesn’t need the ball he fits in a lot of places on decelerating contract it’s like a really nice number he’s making 18.7 this year goes down to 17.3 after that and 16 after that like today’s cap environment that’s a really

Good contract for that quality of player is that what what what are you hearing around around him because I feel like you could get something for that I would agree but it it feels like he’s a guy that they still see as part of their program I don’t know if they just don’t

Want he’s he’s pretty connected with like their their leadership there it seems yeah yeah I mean so I agree that you could get something there and maybe you’re you’re just rightfully so concerned about lowering the floor of the group you know what I mean they’re they’re not looking this is not a market

A franchise that is interested in in bottoming out when so long as you have Trey young and I even talked to some other people about how the fans were handling this particular era and and they uh they were pleasantly surprised that you know I don’t know the numbers

But like attendance has been okay it’s not it’s not you know the op sounds like the fans are still showing up to have a really good time they’re not that they’re you know kind of apathetic at like uh you know this isn’t going well but it’s like they’re not booing them

It’s not like you know it’s more like hey let’s go have this fun time tonight and then watch Georgia football game and watch the the Falcons game and the Braves are coming up Spring training’s coming one thing I’ll credit the Hawks with is they have a really good in Arena

Experience they I they have a great Arena it’s really nice they they have they have fun the games fun big boards during during the during the stoppages that’s a that’s a good in Arena experience I still haven’t been there since the renovation which I think was

Like 2018 so like that Fred have you have you ever gotten a cut at the arena they have a barber famously uh in Arena that you can I think it’s I heard it’s a little pricey I I forget the exact price I’m going there I think in about 10 days let’s get

A haircut so maybe we’ll maybe I’ll do a segment for you that week and you could I mean you know you could expense it that’s work right you know what I mean it off if you if you do a story on getting your haircut at the arena you

Could definitely expense that I may or may not have expensed a haircut when I was covering the uh the NBA bubble in Orlando that happened there you um when I when I had one over the course of six weeks uh all right guys let’s get to the

Most exciting part of the program it’s now becoming a weekly thing a weekly uh by the way it probably be a weekly thing I’m trying to make this something Slater I’m trying to build okay go go sorry sorry Foundation you know Oklahoma City is a wonderful place their program was s

Presty leading the way has quickly pivoted from uh you know the Kevin Durant Russell Westbrook era to rebuilding to Holy Smokes they they look like a squad that could make an impact and lo and behold the athletic has not one but two guys who used to cover the

Thunder um in a daily capacity uh Slater these days is I mean wearing a lot of baseball caps on that that head of hair that he has you know Warriors Kings Thunder and uh and we’re getting back to OKC what what do you need to share this

Week on the thunderbeat oh well first of they they’ve leaped into first place this week you know they’re 31 and 13 for game win streak beat the Timberwolves uh this past weekend in Minnesota uh I just wrote about their defense this week I mean their top five defense like you

Know it’s we’ve kind of nibbled around this conversation and in some ways it’s it’s part of a trade deadline conversation of like you know should they go for it I know that’s been kind of a Hot Topic um but they just profile as a title Contender for many reasons

But including like they are a top five defense they’re a very young team that defends gets stops and uh it doesn’t seem like it’s like you know uh smok in mirrors uh type stuff it’s like their best players are great Defenders Shay gilders Alexander has 98 steals this

Season the next closest guy in the entire league as 64 I believe is the number uh Chad Homen is third in as a rookie they have a rookie Center anchoring their defense he has 114 blocks and it’s not just the blocks it’s the rim protection it’s the rim deter

Currence um I watched like pretty much all his blocks the season which by the way like name a star in the league he’s already blocked his shot halfway half a season into his career it’s like an unbelievable you know uh like set of film if you just watch the the way you

Know he gets some of these blocks the motor on him uh so I just I was gonna bring Andrew in he’s welcome to come in and chat a little bit more about it but I mostly I’m being Shameless I just wanted to plug the story I put up I you

Know talk talk to Mark dagnold about it talk to Chad and you know just how they’re doing this and it’s beyond those two which by the way it is very good if your two best you know most important players look like really good Defenders who want to you know play both ways but

Also Jaylen Williams is is having a star rise really this month he can defend well 72 wingspan uh Lou Dort is their stopper uh and they’re just kind of loaded with guys who who take that end serious and that you know as we talk about joking about having a weekly

Segment I mean like to me more and more they’re looking like oh like we legitimately might be talking about this team like deep into may they also have a lot of really switchable competitive guys like like even like Aaron Wiggins I was I was just blowing up Andrew’s phone

Last night texting him about Aaron Wiggins being like am I crazy or is Aaron Wiggins like a lot better than a tenth man just he hits his threes when he’s out there he competes on defense he’s long he guards hard he’s a smart Team Defender been the better wig in the

League this year I’ll say that oh oh well I I didn’t want to throw a hot take out there but that was what I text to the group chat I I said which Wiggins are you taking you have to win a game tonight tonight tonight there’s an answer for that the

2022 playoffs you’re taking the other one but tonight I know who you’re taking yeah I mean I mean I okay so Andrew just popped on the screen and I need to ask him something because Sam doesn’t want to talk about small stuff like the Washington Wizards so so I’m gonna ask

About the the the Stars the huge names the guy that’s such a big name that we need to such such a big name we need to hyphenate the name GIS Alexander I I I feel like one of the the biggest subtle developments in the League this year is

Everybody talks about Shay’s offense and it’s not that he was some horrific Defender before but he’s at a whole other level defensively and Slater you notice it you mentioned it with the Steals and that kind of stuff off the ball he has just been really spectacular in terms

Of similarly to kind of how he uses his body on offense he’s kind of using that slitter to get into passing Lanes he’s not really gambling he’s he’s making these incredible team basketball decisions and rotating fast and so well I mean Andrew what’s what’s your perspective of Shay’s defense and kind

Of where it used to be to where how it’s arrived at this like unbelievably high level for anyone let alone for a guy who has to take on his offensive load yeah he’s just like completely locked in and I’ve asked him about this a few times and part of the answer that

He always gives me is that he he watches a lot of basketball and he’s like night in night out if Thunder AR playing like he’s he’s watching and you have to one he’s locked in two then you give credit to his teammates on the other side because like Lou dorts guarding the best

Player on the other team Jaylen Williams usually guarding the best um like forward and then obviously you have Chad there and so it allows him to usually defend guys that aren’t doing a whole lot offensively and he goes for Steels he’s number one in the NBA in

Steels by like a mile I think he has 98 right now the guy who’s second in the league in total steals is matis tyo who has 30 less than him so it’s so it’s like this giant margin with what he’s doing and I think some of it is just his

Competitive nature too I think that he just wants to get this team out in transition all the time he actually he knows that the goal of this team the way the Thunder are successful is they play fast and they get turnovers and that’s how you can get away with playing small

And losing the rebounding battle night after night after night and people are going to point to that oh they need a big they need to do this they need to do that but the reason part of the reason that this is working so well that the

Offense and the defense is great is they turn team’s over a lot and Shay on the other side of it he’s getting all these steals he just doesn’t turn the ball over like he I think he’s had threes the most turnovers he’s had since like October I mean he just doesn’t turn the

Ball over and so it’s like a combination of those two things that like help this Thunder team be efficient on both ends but defensively I agree he’s he’s completely locked in and understands what his role is within the defense dagal made an interesting uh point when

I was talking to him about and you know like the Thunder loved to reference the last few years right this isn’t just like hey we arrived this season it’s like so much of what they did the last few years was was informative and helpful and he made the point that

Actually the season he was an assistant it was Billy Donovan’s last year the Chris Paul season um because they had Chris Paul Dennis shuder like Shay was basically their three and he was like Shay wasn’t only the three but Danilo galinari was the four so Shay was like

The wing stopper on that team and uh you know completely different role than he currently has but he’s I think that really helped like you know when you talk about his defensive growth like there was a time in his career where he was our our small forward who like hey

Go you know guard LeBron even though you’re a secondy year type player and and like you know again like they love to be like you know that matters that matters today the fact that he did that that I’m good I promote my story I’m good I gotta get out of here beat the

Kings you know they’re 0 and2 against the Kings I’m not going to believe it till they beat the Sacramento Kings I’m not going to believe in the King so they beat the Pelicans either everyone got their Kryptonite right they do the Bucks need to beat the Pacers who’s the

Warriors Kryptonite the league right now in general themselves all right Slater gota go he had a late night last night um I will I think probably Warriors tonight I gotta get I’m a game time decision I might be joining you this evening if I can make that drive again um appreciate

You guys that was good stuff Fred don’t worry we have a weekly wizard segment for you uh every single time out I know you want to get in the weeds you miss your old job don’t you of course I do Andrew thank you buddy thanks for jumping on yeah yeah thanks fellas

Thanks everybody talk to you next week

Tampering on The Athletic NBA Show discuss:

0:00 Milwaukee Bucks
32:33 Washington Wizards
41:58 Trade Deadline
52:54 OKC Thunder