Thunder Dream Offseason + Ben Pfeifer on the Draft

Thunder Dream Offseason + Ben Pfeifer on the Draft

welcome to down to dunk I’m your host Andrew SLE for part of the athletic podcast network with me as always is my good friend Alex Spears Alex what’s up what’s up Andrew what’s up and joining us to talk about the draft prospects um feels like feels like this guy handpicked these guys for the Thunder it’s Ben Fifer back on the Pod how’s it going guys thanks for having me on yeah it is kind of funny I’m just like I literally had a tweet like blow up during the draft where I was like I was like clipping some AJ Mitchell stuff and I’m like his I’m like he’d be really great in like an OKC Boston style like driving kick off then I’m like oh they did it I’m like they made three trades to go get him it’s pretty wild um trading five seconds is a hilarious bit like five it’s so funny it’s like literally a 2K trade yeah it really is uh let’s start at the top let’s start with with topic because I know that you are a big fan of him we’re not going to see him for a year we got the he spoke to the media the other day and he’s 19 and you can tell that English is not his first language so it’s not like the best setting for him but tell us what kind of player the Thunder are getting in topic yeah topic is like a pretty remarkable player to fall to the mid Lottery cuz he’s definitely a top three five Talent in this class um and I think they’re fortunate you know obviously he’s not fortunate that he got heard but the Thunder are fortunate that presumably he wouldn’t be there if it wasn’t for this injury and they’re patient and they’re a situation where hey this is a lottery team that is patient that can wait on a player like this and topich is a truly special like driving initiator Prospect like a legit 6 foot5 18-year-old who was a dominant Creator in the Adriatic League which is a pretty solid League which is a pretty solid pro league and gets to the rim literally whenever he wants um he was a fantastic finisher like shot better on half court layups this year than like basically every Prospect I tracked like aside from like Kyrie who is higher percentage in his small time at Duke fantastic playmaker by the way better than Luca better than JW better than Fox better than ant I’m trying to remember the ones that I charted he’s his touch is ridic ridiculous and he gets to the front of the room whenever he wants um which is a very valuable thing and he’s an excellent playmaker as well don’t think he’s like a truly Elite passer like maybe some have speculated but he you know he’s a simple pick and roll passer he can kick to the corners pass to the roll um and I think his shot isn’t bad either like his touch is amazing his free throw shooting is great he’s willing to shoot like he just like hasn’t really had to in his career because you know he’s such a dominant interior scorer it’s like why would you shoot when you can get a layup every time but his shot is underdeveloped far from broken his the the main obstacle will be defense um because he is very very rail thin and isn’t the quickest like laterally and can struggle um but again Elite horizontal athlete burst getting into the paint um and I think that’s what you know def the Thunder like they did a fun thing where it was like instead of attacking a bunch of different needs in the draft like we have one thing that we really want we want like more secondary guards who can really Drive and like pass and make those SK passes and we’re just gonna take three swings of them um and I think topich is the first one of that and I do think like he has a legit star ceiling again don’t know how it’s going to manifest in OKC but I think I trust the development infrastructure there it’s been really strong over the last three four years getting guys obviously like you know Shader reach is ceiling and JB and even Dort to take the steps he has and Wiggins and all these guys so I trust them and obviously I trust dagnal to put him in good spots but yeah this is I mean look we saw how well the red shirt rookie year went for Chad right like just yep getting in a year of rehabing working through his body you know adjusting physically to the league and then he comes in year two and he’s dominating the jump I don’t think topic is going to be like that level of dominant like you know I wouldn’t he’s not shed as a prospect that’s a hard thing for anybody to be but I think it could be similar where he gets healthy has time to learn from some great players a great system and ends up just being a really really impactful player like pretty quickly one of the narratives with like his pre-draft process was he had like these amazing 13 games in the Adriatic League then he goes on to play for red star and I mean he was still like fine like as being an 18-year-old like he was still good but was there any part of that experience when he moved on that gave you any pause about his game now that he was going up against you know higher competition um not really and if anything I would say the some of that red star tape before his injury because he tried to come back after the injury um and he was just like totally cooked like like he just could not move like it was obvious like he shouldn’t be playing and he reinjured his his NE but he obviously wasn’t having the same kind of scoring and like initiator success against Pros in the Euro league which makes sense but I think he was doing more like off ball stuffs like you know floor General point guard playmaking defense rebounding which is what he’s going to have to do in the Thunder and what he’s going to have to do in the league and that’s one of my main concerns like overarching concerns with topit is like how is he GNA play without the ball right because he he’s best when he has the ball in his hands when he’s going downhill when he’s playmaking when he’s getting to the rim in theoretically right you you’d think a player of his age and smarts and tools could figure out how to play off the ball um but I think at least at least to me in those Euro League games it wasn’t like you know he was a spectac he was spectacularly dominant or anything and I don’t think that should really be the expectation given the given his age and given the the kind of competition he was going up against very very very few guards 18year old guards like like unless you’re Luca like that’s pretty much the only like 18year old guards who ever succeed like that in in the Euro league um so no I don’t think anything that happened would give me pause it’s not like I’m super like super high on him because of what he did but I just think it’s another like good set of data point it’s a a big shame that he got hurt not only just for him but because I think it would have been really valuable to see what he could do through like a whole Euro League season and working with that kind of better competition um but hey you know it is what it is and we work with what we work with one thing that surfaced like right after he was drafted is that well the Thunder traded Josh Giddy and then they just went and got another version of Josh Giddy and while there are some things some ways to compare these two uh there are a lot of differences as well how would you compare those two as prospects wait am I Frozen hold a sec I think I lagged for a second would would you mind repeating end that question yeah yeah I I just was curious how would you compare Josh Giddy and and topic as prospects I think they’re honestly like extremely different and the like the main kind of impetus behind this comparison is just like tall non-american white passers right be perfectly honest um to top topic is like nowhere near the level of playmaker gidy was as a prospect and and probably will ever be like he you know for for for all of his faults which we’re all you know acutely aware of his passing just like from a pure St obviously never had the scoring to take advantage of it was was pretty it’s pretty remarkable and while topic is like a good passer he’s not like creative and manipulative and deceptive in the way that giddy is but also he can actually create an advantage and score in the half court like even in the like the NBL it was always a projection for for giddy scoring it was like okay you know if he improves the flexibility if he really improves the touch if he you know he had a bunch of Pathways to kind of improve his scoring and he just never really did it to a significant enough degree not saying he can’t in Chicago but like you know he just hasn’t at this point whereas topic already has the one thing that you know would would have totally unlocked giddy’s game is that he can get by his Defender whenever he wants and get to the front of the rim um I think he’s also a better shooter as well I mean I mean he’s a much better shooter obviously the the bar is low giddy was always like not a great free throw shooter his touch wasn’t amazing but um like topic he can dribble he can get to the rim um but I don’t think people should expect the same level of playmaking like he’s a he he’s a very good passer and he can make some passes that OKC needs but he’s not like a crazy highlight passer and that just shouldn’t be the expectation for him but that’s okay uh so let’s move on to Dylan Jones who you made an 18-minute video about in a leadup to the draft was it only 18 minutes that’s I think it was 18 minutes uh and me being an idiot didn’t watch it until draft night after they drafted him because I was like well they don’t have a pick why they’re gonna why why do I need to learn about this guy turns out uh it was very important and so he’s a guy who played four years I was very surprised he went in the first round well that’s kind of what I want to ask you because pleasantly surprised but I was surprised the title of your video was like about how you know he’s a Hidden Gem you brought up the fact that you would have taken him in the top 20 of this draft um but you were still surprised that he ended up in the first so what was it about his game that kind of made you feel that confident about him and at the same time why did you feel like it was unlikely he would be taken in the first yeah so he just didn’t really have a ton of pre-draft Buzz at least from what I had seen like you didn’t really see him in any mocks like any of like the big ESPN and athletic or whatever mock like didn’t really have him um I you know I don’t really pretend to have like sources like that but of the few people I had asked like didn’t seem like people were really thinking about him as a first round pick um unfortunately I don’t have anyone to talk to in the Thunder building because maybe they would have told me that he was going to be a first round pick but um yeah I think his kind of like weirdness maybe I think that maybe scares some teams off because it isn’t exactly clear what position he plays or how clean the fit is because Jones is really one of one in terms of his like college role and position and what he did he was he’s a six foot four guard with a 611 wingspan who played point guard on offense and Center on defense like this is just an irreplicable irreplicable situation that’s not going to happen in the NBA like he’s I think he’s the only college player ever to post uh seasons of 30 plus rebound rate assist rate and usage rate like there’s just nobody who has done the things he’s done not even like in like a like historically good way just like very different and I think maybe that scared teams off like what’s his role going to be how is he gonna adjust off the ball but I think like part of why I liked him so much is I think there’s so much you can get out of his skill set for for a creative like if you’re a creative and willing to like forward think with his skill set because he is such a brilliant basketball player like he is to me the best one of the best passers in the draft and critically the best skip passer in the draft which was something that OKC I think notably lacked especially in the Dallas series where the the mths would just like thend to help from the like the far weak side and like hey like make this pass I dare you and they they really couldn’t consistently throughout the series and I think that was a big issue topit topit Jones and AJ Mitchell are all really good at that skill which I think is clear like the I I do think that OKC goes about fitting needs and stuff like in a non-traditional way it’s not like they don’t care about fit or or need but it’s not like at least from at least from like what I’ve seen um where as you probably will remember I was critical of the jdub pick um I didn’t love that pick and part of my rationale at the time was like you’re picking more Ballers more guys who you know who need the ball in their hand there’s potential developmental overlap I was scarred by a team like the Pistons and I’m like oh no you can actually have multiple ball handlers and multiple guys who can put the ball on the floor if their skill sets overlap in a way it makes sense and like that’s to me what I think is so interesting about Jones because like as you said at the top like could be pretty much everything everything they need if he hits and it’s not like it’s a guarantee that he hits I think he’s got to be a good a better shooter but I do trust his shooting just because he was in like such a heavy on ball role he didn’t really ever get opportunities to take like o open Catch and shoots and he was pretty good at them when he did like he just never did it it just wasn’t his job really like they they never needed him to but with the guy with his incredible like passing Advantage cre finishing stuff defensively um going to be kind of weird but also I think I trust him because he like has the tools in the feel and in like the The Limited like combine scrimmage sample where he wasn’t playing Center on defense he looked pretty fine like he looked good enough as a driver and stuff and as I was saying before right like OKC clearly identified or at least to me it seems like they clearly identified a like specific like skill set weakness rather than like a position like a power forward or like a you know who whatever like we need players who can do this thing and we’re just going to swing at that and I think Jones is like the ultimate example of that like if he hits I think he’s exactly what they need don’t think he’s a guaranteed to hit or anything but you know it’s the 26th pick it’s it’s a late first round pick it’s not I don’t think the expectation should ever be like a you know guaranteed star or role player for a late first but I think it’s the type of gamble that one I think Jones is like I just trust him to like at the very least with his basketball IQ and his physical tools and stuff at least find like some spot in the rotation even if he’s not like a regular playoff guy like but I think he has the potential to be that yeah it was funny because at the press conference on Saturday I asked Dylan about just how he’s an unconventional player and as I’m saying it he kind of looks down at pry and he starts to laugh and then like the whole room starts to laugh just I don’t why um but he is like such an unconventional guy that it’s you just wonder like okay he had the ball all the time at Weber just like he was he handled the ball consistently all the time and he was the guy and he talked about how being the guy is going to help him understand what the guy needs yeah that quote was fire so gosh did somebody write that for you like what’s going on here such a great quote and he I just wonder like is he is he like a power forward like what like what do you anticipate him being because he’s obviously not going to be a like a guard on this team like they have too many guys that can initiate I just wonder about him just like being a secondary Creator like from the forward position and yeah that’s kind of what I would imagine him as and I think they’re probably going to be banking on his like extremely strong frame and wingspan to help him guard up a little bit and I think that’s probably going to be what he’s best at on defense like he’s like a pretty quick laterally but I probably wouldn’t want him guarding like small guards right or like chasing them on and that’s honestly fine because thunder has so many players who can do that um they don’t really need him to do that but a guy who is he’s not like a shot blocker or anything has like weirdly low block numbers for a guy of his like physical tools and and smarts and I don’t think shot blocking is generally something that like develops a ton in the pros like it’s I mean it can but I think to to an extent it’s you have it or you don’t but Jones is super smart well positioned on the backline I think his experience playing the five it’s not like these skills he gained are useless right as Dylan said like he he learned about being the guy he learned about what it takes to be the guy and what it’s gonna like what he needs or what a guy needs and I think it’s like hey I’m not going to be the main guy guarding the rim but I know how to slide down and make rotations I know how to play and help I know how to play off the ball and stuff and I think that’s something that I really made me confident in in more conf confident in Dyan really studying his tape is that he like is a smart offb player and knows how to play with an system he just doesn’t ever have to do it because he is the system but like I’m like why do you know how to like relocate off the ball and to make these rotations and like to do this stuff that role players do it’s like you’re not a role player like when have you ever had to do this and he and he somehow just knows how to do it and that inspires confidence to me that again I don’t know exact I’m not going to pretend to know exactly what his um role is going to look like and I think kind of bringing this back to the beginning of the conversation it’s like that that to me is probably why a lot of teams weren’t super into him because they couldn’t Envision what role he played but I think that’s so common among prospects who ended up being either stars or like steals of the draft like I think about guys like you know not comparing Dylan to these guys like Draymond or seaka these like late first hits where it’s like the these were weird college guys don’t really know how it’s going to translate they have a lot of skills and tools so we’re going to fade them and then a creative coach organization gets their hands on them and they kind of take those skills and and mold them into something greater than some of their parts and I think these those are the kind of bets I want to take in like the in the drafts in general it’s like yeah maybe he’s not as safe as a I’m trying to think of a guy who was there I don’t know like a Baylor Shan or whatever who’s you know you know what you’re getting he’s like a three and D shooter it’s like cool but I think there could be something truly unique and valuable with Jones and as like you said this like weak side kind of forward type playmaker which the Thunder don’t don’t really have at this point I mean that’s kind of something that they were hoping Giddish would be and it never really was and a lot of their wing type players are like you know we love Wiggins and Isaiah Joe and you know Lou Dort and all these guys but they’re not really like the the off dribble playmakers that you want to be relying on they’re they’re much better like off guys who you know can use their cutting and shooting and whatever so uh prey he used to bring up the idea of physicality a lot and I was wondering what you thought about Jones’s physicality because clearly he has like great size he’s a great defensive rebounder like is that something that really pops when you watch his tape or does it still feel like he could use his size more on the court oh I would say no doubt his physicality pops I’m I’m curious though to see how it translates defensively because like you said it’s like he’s an amazing rebounder I don’t like he’s not going to be like the best rebounder in the NBA like he wasn’t College like he’s gonna be a good rebounder positionally I think that’s fair but he often times like wasn’t super physical in the times that I remember him like guarding the perimeter and stuff and I wonder if that’s just cuz he wasn’t very comfortable doing it um and like working in space especially on the defensive end so I do think that’s going to be kind of a transition point but I’m not super worried about it because of how good it was on the interior and how physical he is of an offensive player he’s an incredibly good foul drawer as well like always hunting contact um I think because one of my other major offensive concerns that he’s not a very explosive player vertically and he’s not that tall so I do have some concerns about his finishing where though I he’s super crafty has great touch wingman really strong there always are going to be limitations at the NBA level for shorter players who aren’t Elite vertical athletes it’s just kind of how how how it goes but I do think his physicality will be an advantage to him there maybe he needs to tap into it a little bit more even um but I do think he’s like at a the very least at a good starting point in terms of physicality and and strength and he’s very willing to like take contact and stuff he he’s not shying away from that or anything yeah what do you think the most misunderstood thing about him is because a lot of people had him in like the 40s 50s or 60s on their boards and you had it much higher like what do you think people most misunderstood about his game yeah I think the main thing that people misunderstood about Dylan Jones is is really just how incredibly Advanced his like creation stuff is I value that a ton and clearly Sam fry does as well the the ability to get downhill to like bend the defense to actually be able to like do something when you catch the ball and take a couple dribbles and not like record scratch because I think he identified that as a weakness on the roster a lot of these players when they were attacking off the catch in the playoffs struggle to make coherent decisions and stuff like that but I think Dylan this combination so to me he’s like the the perfect non-traditional upside guy where most people think or I feel like traditional basketball media thinks of upside like run jump athleticism tall guys you know stuff like that scoring where in actuality at least to me upside is these unique traits special basketball IQ which is I think something that myself and a lot of other like quote unquote draft Twitter people kind of always seem the value more than the league is this like innate feel for the game which Jones certainly has I think that plus his ability to dribble and like to create with his body are the main reasons that I think I’m more optimistic than maybe other people were so the third guard uh that s pry drafted AJ Mitchell how would you I mean we’ve talked about like what is M what makes topic unique what makes Dylan Jones unique what is AJ Mitchell’s thing that excites you yeah Mitchell is honestly kind of like a diet tow pitch which is really hilarious that they’re like we’re just going to take both of these guys and see if one works out I probably would have liked them to take maybe like one of the for I think there were a couple good like forwards and stuff on the board at that point like I like the overall I like the AJ pick a lot just because I like think the value is good and I like him a lot as a player I was kind of surprised they took another guard but again I’m at the point where I’ve done enough criticizing of prey for his kind of fit related stuff and been burned on it that I’m willing he’s you know I I think they’ve entered that tier of you know I’m I’m willing to trust the process and see what’s here until I you know criticize it too harshly versus a team I don’t like the [ __ ] Pistons or something but no offense to Pistons fans or anything but AJ Mitchell is just like another one of these incredible driving like combo guard types or he’s more of like a one I would say 64 6 foot five and just like topage gets to the front of the rim whenever he wants he’s not the same kind of athlete he wins like he has really good first de but he wins mostly with like incredible like craft and he’s an amazing ball handler and his touch on him is is phenomenal I think he I don’t have him in front of me but I know his numbers on like floaters and Runners and like layups and stuff is are just absurd like his body control and ability to finish through contact and to hit these tough shots is really really amazing um so driving and then like I kind of to at the beginning he’s like he kind of fits really well in this like driving kick style where he is amazing at like collapsing the defense and kicking out and finding a shooter he’s not the most advanced passer in the world um he’s a pretty good catch and shoot guy I like his defense a lot I think this is kind of like a safer topage because like topic has L of The Upside and stuff but defensively like he’s not going to be playable right away like shooting off the ball who knows I have optimism but I don’t think it’s like a guarantee that he a great shooter you know never is but AJ where he already is a really really accomplished catch and shoot guy and he was he’s a really smart off ball Defender like very well positioned great rotations like get Steals on the backline um another one of these like excellent free throw shooters like great shooting numbers overall um so as this like three and D guard I really really like the idea of AJ Mitchell is probably like the most seamless I guess like off ball projection whereas Jones and topic I think maybe takes a little bit of Ingenuity to imagine like what they do off the ball and even though Mitchell was the same kind of guy role wise where it’s like he was the the guy on a not so great college team like he was mid- Major engine right like you see same same thing as Dylan Jones was right like mid- major college guy engine of that team never really had excuse me never really had to do the secondary stuff but Mitchell like has the skill like he is a good off ball shooter he is a good Defender it’s like he can do this stuff that you need him to do it’s not really going to take as much imagining um so that’s kind of the what separates Mell from the the other guys but he is very much in the same like Flavor of player it’s clear that prey and Co had a type they wanted to to go for and they’re just like we’re going to take all of the ones in this draft that fit it yeah I feel like for AJ his if if he hits like the ultimate role for him could be like a six-man kind of guy like what do you think about that idea yeah I think I like that a lot because AJ in theory right is an incredibly dominant like driver guy though I don’t think he’s the ath the like athletic guy or you know the playmaker or the scorer to really be like a full-time like point guard level driver at the the NBA level um I do think he could totally do that in a bench roll so I think his theoretical skill set provides some potential versatility where he can probably play off the ball you know shoot the ball in in lineup the Shay or jdub you know shoot shoot the ball off of the catch and and defend and drive and attack Closeouts where you know you get him against bench units and he’s probably going to be able to blow by whoever your backup point guard Defender is because of he’s you know his quickness and his craft and his veteran ability to to get to the paint and to score at the hoop so I do honestly like that IDE quite a bit of him as like a backup initiator guard because yeah it’s kind of true that none of the like the OKC’s guards really have that skill set like they’re all best playing next to other really great guards like like sha or J and I’m sure that was intentional right like getting guys like KAS and Lou Dort and Wiggins and Joe who aren’t you know you don’t want running a bench offense but are really great next to your stars where you kind of do actually need some guys who are who can be those other offensive pieces or like you know scorers or guys who have juice with the ball in their hands and I think AJ very much is like that in in ways that guys like guys like K and D aren’t who I think are fantastic players don’t want to like get that wrong or anything but just different types of players even if they’re all quote unquote guards I kind of want to ask you about casm because we’re excited for summer league it seems like you know if if K’s there like he’s going to get a lot of the ball in his hands we’ll see although now they have a ton of cards umna he’s not gonna play oh he’s not gonna play oh never mind but I did want to ask you about like what did you think his offensive upside was going into that draft and then now that you’ve seen him a year in the NBA what do you think about his offensive upside yeah I don’t remember if we ever talked about KAS last year but like probably not honestly I didn’t think they were gonna draft him but I was really really high on KAS last year I had him like six to eight in a really strong draft um mostly because of his defense I think just cuz I mean his defense is amazing and he was his defense was amazing as a rookie I don’t think there’s much like you know talk about that but I thought his offense was interesting but not incredible as a prospect um KAS was like a you know point guard sized guy who really couldn’t dribble um and I think some of those issues definitely still persisted in in the league where he’s not a comfortable like on ball Creator and he’s not super great at any of that but I did have some belief that maybe he could get to like a secondary level because he is a great shooter and we saw that in in his rookie year even if it was mostly off Ball but at Kentucky he was an incredible shooter off pullup pullup pullup jumpers he was amazing finishing at The Rim stuff that he really didn’t have to do his rookie year like he never had to create for himself and and take tough shots but just because he wasn’t in you know the the system that required it but I think his offense kind of went like as well as you can really ask for as a rookie like absurdly efficient in a in a complimentary role good decision maker takes care of the ball doesn’t like do dumb stuff um and I think that’s kind of why I like KAS as an offensive Prospect is that even if he’s not going to hit his quote unquote creation on ball ceiling he has the tools to just be a you know good role player like like he’s not going to do dumb stuff he’s gonna he’s going to shoot the ball he’s going to cut he’s going to rebound he’s going to do all that stuff but I did think there maybe was some like if he can become a really great pull-up shooter or maybe if he can improve his like pick and roll playmaking I thought maybe there was like a kind of some path but I never thought there was like a crazy um crazy upside there go follow Ben on Twitter BJ PF and go check out his YouTube channel if you just search Ben Fifer PF f r uh just go watch the Dylan Jones video that’s my advice you’re a you’re a Pacers fan when is the wisan video coming out are you doing that so this was funny um I felt like this was some kind of cosmic Justice um in that I was I I tweeted this after happened but I was just starting prep work for a video on wisan about like why he failed and why and like why why it was a mistake to take him high I’m like I don’t want to do that like that’s just mean um I don’t want to but like yeah I don’t know I I just think it’s kind of hilarious that Kevin fitchard and Chad Buchanan are trying to amass every single 2020 lottery pick on that roster this is five by the way technically technically six if you count the Kyro Lewis because they like they got Kyra in like the r like the seak trade and like rerouted him or something like that um they had I’ll count that they had now wisman halberton Jaylen Smith eron Smith um yeah so wisman four lottery picks too yeah toppen Obi toppen and Kyro Lewis that’s six lottery picks wow which is absolutely hilarious and I don’t understand like I have to feel like they’re doing a goof but like that is so I don’t know if it’s any I if there’s any team that wisman can succeed on I feel like the Pacers are a fine kind of place like I don’t like for like a minimum backup center in the I don’t care right it’s like he’s gonna feast in in halton’s offense just like every kind of flawed big does and maybe he’ll get his pay day and good for him if he does um but yeah I’m probably probably gonna delay that wisman video at least for a little bit um as I work on some more like 2025 draft stuff um but yeah that’s that was that was that was fun that’s so great uh go follow Ben thanks so much for joining us uh we’re going to take a quick break and after that we’re going to talk about the offseason thanks guys thanks man and we’re back after that quick break ow yeah the Thunder have done ridiculous work since the you know we’re at the draft everybody’s thinking okay how are we going to fix these problems with the team at the draft and they end up really not doing that they end up just taking like upside swings on guards that are multi-skilled that can play multiple positions which is just kind of more of the same what they’ve been doing and so like the cruo stuff we’ve already talked about that and then the the day after free agency starts that morning you start to hear the news about these contracts from Isaiah Joe which was tremendous Aaron Wiggins and then they signed Isaiah hartenstein and now you can’t listen to an NBA podcast without people talking about how the Thunder are number one team in the west this has put some true title contention uh Mel and I talked about it a lot on Monday but I just want to know what are your thoughts yeah I mean the first thing was just like the aggressiveness with hartenstein really stood out yeah because we’ve talked about this the whole time mainly thinking about the picks which is that like whenever prey does identify the player that he wants he has the ammo and he can be aggressive now as it turns out he was super aggressive and didn’t have to use any picks it was just being aggressive with his cap space the craziest part about this whole thing is that they were able to upgrade their roster in a pretty meaningful way without sacrificing any picks that is the crazy about it and buying the extra first rounder with also not giving up a first so yeah yeah uh it’s just amazing because like we keep waiting for the shoe to drop with these picks like what are they gonna do with these picks and he’s been able to accomplish all this without even touching those so that’s been amazing but big picture like the name that I was thinking about and give me a second to explain was Mike muscala because back in the tanking years right yeah we loved going on PBP stats.com looking at the lineup dat and saying oh my gosh if you just played moose 48 minutes a night this would be a championship team because he was just that type of player where like when he’s on the court good stuff happens even on nights when he wasn’t shooting well yeah simply because of his gravity good stuff was happening and Caruso and hartenstein in much bigger roles have that same have had that same effect on their teams throughout their career where when they’re on the court good stuff happens and so as I think it of the Season yes people are talking about like you know who is in this like upper tier of contenders with Boston OKC I’m almost thinking like bigger than that because in my head I’m like okay this is this was the number one team in the west with like a plus six or whatever net rating which was like you know kind of traditionally been the cut off for championship teams what happens when you add two of the most impactful role players in the league and just to give you an example of how impactful they are I did a stathead query okay very simple query Andrew yeah just played under 30 minutes per game that’s it and then played at least 1500 minutes this season that’s it that’s the only that’s the only thing I did and then I just sorted it by BPM which you know it’s it’s one of the all-in-one stats of the ones that are publicly available it’s probably the most well-respected I just want to read out the top 10 guys on that list okay top 10 guys by descending BPM number one Victor wanyama somehow didn’t play 30 minutes a game 29.7 Who that’s weird christops porzingis Al Horford Isaiah hartenstein Mike connley Chad holgren Dante D venzo Daniel Gafford Alex kuso and Trey Murphy thei so in in my mind like there’s three groups of players there one is Victor whama two is like the really low usage Stars which would be like Chris STS and Chad and then some of the best role players in the league I mean we saw how Minnesota was so different when Mike Conley was out we saw the effect that Dante dienzo had in the playoffs Daniel Gafford especially in the regular season what he did with Dallas how important Trey Murphy was the fact that they added two of the players on that list to this team without giving up any picks and of course chat’s on that list as well like I’m just like it’s going to be so hard to put a bad lineup out on the court yeah it’s going to be nearly impossible I mean I’m sure we’ll find something you know maybe we can get you know Dort at the point we’ll put us at the five know get you could probably if you really tried come up with a bad lineup but if they’re just sticking to like their core you know nine or 10 rotation there’s really going to be no bad lineups there yeah like any way you mix and match there there is going to be something interesting that can help you kind of uh adapt to whatever whatever team you’re playing so I’m just like like what happens what happens when you take the best team in the west with a plus six net rating and you add two of the best role players in the game like what is possible even in just the regular season like I feel like this team just like Advanced stats-wise has the potential to put up just some absurd numbers I mean the these are when you look at impacts stats like hartenstein and Caruso this season were so consistently at the top of nearly every metric and maybe that doesn’t you know maybe like the impact that hartstein had in New York doesn’t immediately translate to OKC you know where it’s not that dramatic um and part of that will be you know playing with some really good players too so like his onoff numbers might not look as dramatic as they as they did in New York but I just like I’m I’m just kind of stunned at the amount of good players in this rotation going forward while knowing how good the team was last year you know like there were there were all those things that we talked about throughout last year of like oh it’d be really nice to have another big or um it’d be really nice to have like one more uh defender or whatever it was but at the same time like every time you would get worried or like start uh like catastrophizing like oh we desperately need this thing you would come back to the you know standings it was like oh well they’re still an awesome team and their defense is incredible their offense is incredible like maybe this team maybe this roster is just better than I thought and then to improve on that I just I I I can’t I probably can’t get higher like there there is a just there’s just like nowhere else to go in terms of expectation like they already were the one seed they already were top five in offense and defense like how much better can you get so that that’s just uh I’m just like very excited assuming Health like this is going to be really incredible yeah this is part of like why at the end of the season like going into the playoffs I was like this is your chance NBA like you better beat the Thunder now because this is what they can do without using draft picks like this is what they can do create creatively with cap space and with trades um this is what they can do just think about what they could do with these draft picks or think about what might happen if the Clippers go into the complete tank and they can’t do anything which listen they are try they’re building a team around James Harden and Kawhi Leonard and every convicted felon possible in the NBA right now they’re the type of Team where and we’ve seen them before with tyo where like they weren’t good but they were still like very competent and so I think it’s easy to look at that roster and envision a scenario where that team is still very competent but their margin for error is so small oh it’s gone I mean it’s gone because I think even if you removed Kawai and you still had James Harden I just don’t think you can expect like Houston James Harden to just suddenly reappear and carry a team over the length of a season in the Western Conference he’s still very good but I I just don’t think he’s that level anymore and so yeah like if everyone’s healthy they’ll probably still be fine um I mean they they could be a lottery team but they’ll you know they’ll be a 500 team or better yeah but if anything happens and you’re suddenly relying on like Kevin Porter Jr to significantly contribute to your team Commander Kevin Porter Jr yeah he yeah if if that it ever gets to that point where you’re like running out of bones Highland Kevin Porter Jr backc court and expecting like good things to happen so yeah that that is very exciting but what you said about like hey this is your chance rest of the league on the flip side like this was OKC’s chance this summer yeah to to make that statement and the fact that they did and they did it so quickly and decisively yeah just like addressing everything I mean basically the only thing left would be if you could get some score Off the Bench which we’ve talked about but I think where you go back to the guys already on the roster or some of these draft picks and like maybe one of those guys will end up filling that role down the line um it certainly wasn’t like the most pressing need uh so yeah I’m I’m I’m very excited yeah it it is and the and the thing about it to me and I kind of keep pushing at this is that they upgraded the roster and also upgraded the fit of the roster because last year and this it’s no surprise or shock to anybody but the Josh giddy thing was like an ongoing issue that they were trying to figure out and that they spent a lot of time and energy trying to figure out now you don’t have that like you go into the season and it’s not hard to imagine what hartenstein and Caruso will look like on this team they’re just gonna do what they do for every team they’ve ever played for you know and there’s not like a well I don’t know how they’re going to do this or I don’t know how this is going to work in the playoffs I think that the reason that people are looking at this team is saying hey this is going to really work is because you don’t have to use your imagination to see how it would work these guys accentuate what what the best players do and it gives it gives jdub and Chad Room to Grow there’s actually probably more shots for them now than there were last season for them to kind of grow into who they can be I mean it is like it is I couldn’t imagine like two players better for this roster that were getable in this off season like who like who are the getable players that would have been better for them or at least this like archetype of player like I don’t I don’t know that are especially if your goal is we really believe in these big three we think that they are going to be the big three going forward and we want to give them the lane to do that or the runway to do that yeah in that scenario I I don’t think there’s and and that’s like the beauty of being able to build through the draft when you actually hit on the core guys and then you can just use all of your assets to build around them because you already your your core is already like so set in place you know like this isn’t like when we were bringing in Paul George and Carmelo and like we have to figure out this core on the Fly how you guys all work together this is just so much more seamless yeah yeah it’s crazy so I uh I don’t know I I don’t like what else like when it comes to predictions like what can you even say like they they were so good last year they were the number one seed I know I mean you look at their depth I mean it’s Shay Chad dub Dort Caruso hartenstein Joe case and wigin that’s nine that’s nine and it’s like yeah feel good about that Jay will before you even get to Jay will or us who like we’ll see happens Williams you know yeah he’s still on the roster and then like you get to like the US Dylan Jones AJ Mitchell yeah I mean I don’t know like the only reason why they wouldn’t be like a a uber Elite regular season team is because I do think they still want to develop those guys at the end of the bench like they’re not going to play a ninan rotation every night like we’re going to see all of these guys and that will lead to you know they’re not going probably not going to be maximizing their regular season output but they they didn’t maximize it last year and they were still the number one seed so I was about to say that they did the same stuff and got them to the number one seed I think they’ll do it again and I think it will get them within range of the one seed and I do think now that you know the caliber of team that you had they were a plus six net rating which means you’re a championship Contender last year now knowing like how close you are you’re one foul away from going to G seven then potentially being in the Conference Finals and NBA Finals like you were really really close then you add these guys you had a year of experience you had just age in general was going to make this team better period and now you push the team forward in a substantial way I think they could be at the top of the West and also I think the the priorities shift from okay let’s figure out what we’ve got to okay how do we stylistically get this team to a championship level and I think that to me is like the mission from day one is we need to lean stylistically in a way all season long that’s repeatable once we get to the playoffs like how do we get Shay and dub and Chad off ball in a meaningful way that allows other guys to get open shots and allows them to be in better position that’s something that I think Boston did so well all season long is that they really leaned into that and by the time they got to the playoffs they were just d because they knew how to do it and I think it took them a while to get there and for OKC I think it’s it’s a mission from day one it’s like how do we get these guys moving off ball how do we play in a very cohesive and rhythmic way which is something that prey’s harped on for years I think the physicality is going to be better from everybody than addin Caruso and hartenstein absolutely checks those boxes um I I just think like they’re in such a ridiculous position right now to be successful and they really don’t have any like true weak links defensively it’s probably of the nine that we talked about or even of the 11 that we talked about Isaiah Joe is probably the worst Defender and he’s okay like he was all right and then it’s maybe Wiggins and if we’re talking about Wiggins being like one of the weakest links defensively I mean I there is a world where they are the best defensive team in the league next year you know there’s no one to pick on like what do they do now like what do teams do now when they want to put their wing on Chad and then where do they put their big you know like I think that’s the one yeah go ahead aspect that I’m interested to see because if they do I just I just want to know how how often they’re going to do a double big lineup yeah because that would be the one theoretical downside side of it even though you get a lot of size you improve your rebounding in that scenario yeah you just throw your Center on hartenstein and then you can put your wing your big Wing if you had one on chat and how would that affect their offense um but I I don’t have a good sense of how often we’re going to see the double big lineup I I have to assume it’ll be a decent amount just because of the amount he’s being paid um like if if although you know Chad was on that list because he didn’t play 30 minutes a game last year yeah so there’s already 18 minutes available and so you could easily get hartenstein to you know 22 minutes a night while only playing a handful of minutes with Chad yeah which is kind of what he’s been throughout his career oh absolutely and that’s the great thing about both him and Caruso like they’ve always been lower minute lower usage guys everywhere they 25 a career-high 25.3 minutes last season and that is with the the big injuries that went on uh to Robinson in the season where he had he had to be their starting center for 49 games and he’s still only played 25 minutes per game if that’s what he plays in OKC like you said the 18 minutes plus like seven with um with Chad yeah you know where it’s just like hey at the end of the second quarter we’re going to go double bigs we’re going to see what it looks like and you get yourself like enough of a sample throughout the season that you can you know project it into the playoffs like I don’t I don’t think we’ll see a ton of it and I don’t think you need to see a ton of it I think like you get to have 48 minutes I keep harping on this too 48 minutes of outstanding defense at the big position you’re a better rebounding team you’re a better passing team I think like he’s his creativity as a passer is maybe one of the more underrated things about him like he can really create for you and make really quick decisions and the thing that’s really interesting is I just like I can’t stop thinking about like do you do we think like in the next couple years that they can get him to take some threes like I I just wonder if he would do that he did in the G don’t start don’t start there Andrew we’ve done this I’m getting a little greedy here because he took thre and he did okay I just want like Jay will notable not three-point shooter in college he took them did not make them he was like 25% when he played at Arkansas yeah I just wonder if they would just be like hey listen these these mid-rangers that you’re really good at awes awesome just take three steps back like let’s just see if you can hit it above the break three I wonder if they will challenge him to do that you know in New York they didn’t really want him to they wanted him a lot closer to the basket U they wanted him to be like working at the nail a lot as as a passer and as a Creator there I just wonder if they’ll use him a little bit like they use Jay will who kind of spots up and hits Trail threes and stuff like that and is put in the corner at times I just wonder if they will try to expand his game because if they’re able to do that well then these double big lineups get really goofy really fast because if you have two guys that you feel confident and and that’s maybe where you can hide guys a little bit more as if they do put them that close or they do put him out on the perimeter and I I would guess teams wouldn’t guard him but I just that’s just something an aspect that I just can’t stop thinking about is that he he’s not just a Daniel Gafford type of Center that only finishes around the rim like he’s got real touch he’s got real that Lefty floater is just beautiful like he’s got great touch and so I just wonder if they would push that out to three but I really don’t have I don’t have a good feel for that but just I’m just curious about it yeah I think the the lineups I’m most excited to see are the double big with let’s say like Shay and jayd duub and then you know the fifth guy KAS or or kuso um or Dort I I I just really want to see how that works yeah uh because the defensive potential is kind of like off the charts yeah at this point I mean they they have the best point of attack defense in the NBA like who’s better yeah I mean you probably just say Boston I mean Boston is the one team you could bring up yeah but the Thunder have more guys at point of attack than they do at this point and the the other thing I you know thinking ahead like their flexibility now not just because of the picks but because all of these contracts are either really good because they’re they’re not that much like the ISA Joe contract or the Wiggins contract or in the case of the hartstein Stein contract you know it has that team option in the third year so like they are so flexible I mean last coming into last year it was really just dorts contract that you had as like the midsized contract they’re starting to build up more of these contracts that if they ever wanted to make another move for for a fair player that fit even better they have all of those contracts now um and if they keep them that’s great too because like none of these contracts other than the hartstein contract are really impacting your cap in a significant way yeah yeah they have somehow increase their flexibility yeah and they have all the picks to to make that happen because and I don’t really I don’t know what the details are on the end of Haren Stein’s contract I don’t have I don’t really know what it is but oh so that hasn’t been totally confirmed that it’s well I think that it is I think it is non- guaranteed I don’t know how much of it’s non- guaranteed I just don’t know like what that looks like but that makes him outrageously tradable like outrageously tradable because teams are going to want to get out from under that money you know especially during these EXT these like first few years that if like if it doesn’t work out like I just I don’t think it’s that big of a deal I do think it’ll work out honestly I think he’s perfect for them but also if you want to trade him it makes it easy and if you want to extend him because his number is so high it also makes it really easy so there’s just the flexibility is there um and just shout out to Gordon Hayward for just existing you know great way great way to end the Pod the biggest thing he could ever do for the Thunder was just exist with a big fat contract that was expiring and that led to the formation of this team so if anybody wants to talk about I can’t believe that they traded for Gordon Hayward none of this is possible without Gordo so just remember that just remember that yeah and even you know I think that the counter argument is well they still could have gotten someone better who was an expiring but I don’t know if you would have found another team that would have been willing to take back as much money as Charlotte did took back all those guys yeah like and it’s not like those guys are just awful players or anything but they weren’t going to be a part of the plan moving forward yeah it just it worked out really well okay um thank you so much for tuning in if any of you were going to summer league just keep keep your ears and your eyes peeled because I’m gonna have a really special offer for Thunder fans that are wanting to go to summer league um and so uh specifically with tickets specifically with sitting in a section with a bunch of dunkers and a bunch of Thunder fans so uh be sure to tune in for that hope you guys are doing well and we’ll talk to you guys again on Friday

Andrew Schlecht and Alex Speers discuss the Thunder’s offseason and then have Ben Pfeifer joins to discuss the Draft.