Top 25 NBA Players: Luka Doncic ALL-TIME GREAT on Mavs? Giannis & Bucks rebound? | Hoops Tonight
Jason Timpf continues ranking his Top 25 NBA players with Giannis Antetokounmpo and Luka Doncic. Jason discusses whether Giannis Antetokounmpo, Damian Lillard, and the Milwaukee Bucks are still top tier NBA Finals contenders as well as why Luka Doncic has all-time great potential with the Dallas Mavericks…if he wants it. The show ends with Jason answering listener questions during an NBA Mailbag segment.
Watch Anthony Edwards & Shai Gilgeous-Alexander rankings here: https://youtu.be/nwA2JL_Hrgs
Timeline:
00:00 – Introduction
02:18 – #3: Giannis Antetokounmpo
25:12 – #2: Luka Doncic
45:12 – NBA Mailbag
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#nba #lukadoncic #giannisantetokounmpo #giannis #luka #dallasmavericks #mavericks #mavs #milwaukeebucks #bucks #nbafinals #nbahighlights #nbaplayoffs #nbabasketball #basketball #sports
38 Comments
I seriously think that u not gon win A TITLE with the Luka’s defense , u can make the finals every year with Luka , I still don’t see him winning a title his defense is that bad bruh
Mailbag Question!
Hey Jason! Wondering what would happen to the lakers dynamic if you replaced LeBron with Curry. Five out spacing with Curry and Davis on the floor with decent 3 and D guys around them. Would this work as a championship contender in the league?
Appreciate the hard work you put in for these videos. You may not feel it pay off but it does to us!
I generically think offense is more important than defense and being a great offensive engine is super important. Luka is clearly ahead as an offensive engine. My only concen with Luka is that he tired in the finals and his defense became overwhelmingly bad.Given that dynamic, I might take Giannis over Luka specifically in late play-off rounds.
Hey Jason so I have to debate you about the top 3. And I have a legitimate basketball reasoning behind it. I have the same top three obviously just in a very different order. And I’ll tell you why.
Here’s my ranking then I’ll explain:
1. Luka Doncic
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo
3. Nikola Jokic
So first, here why I think Luka is better than Jokic and the best in the world: he is the best overall offensive player in the world considering his passing and that he can score extremely well at all three levels. His passing is arguably better than Jokics, just less flashy as he had more assists per game last season. Also his shooting is far superior to Jokics especially now that Jokic is in a shooting slump. Also Jokics rebounding stats are inflated just by the pure fact that he is a center and Doncics rebounding is still excellent despite playing the point. Also Doncic has proven to be a more intense scorer when needed (as he dropped 73 in a game last season). Lastly, yes Jokics teams had a better regular season, but he also had a much better overall team than Luka (outside of Kyrie). Once the Mavs made a few trades and got Luka at least manageable help, they had one of the best records after the deadline. Not to mention the fact that Luka carried his team to the finals on poor but manageable health. Jokic was unable to get to the semi finals this past year. People overblow Jokic as a player because of his dominant run in 2023 and because he has a few mvps (some of which I felt were unmerited). And as far as defense goes, the two are both capable of good defense but both lack consistency and are usually lackluster on that end. Jokics defense just looks nicer because of his size advantage.
Next, Giannis being better than Jokic I know is even more controversial than the first one, but I feel he is overall better than Jokic. 1. Giannis is a FAR BETTER defender. And it’s not even close 2. Jokic is only slightly better shooter than Giannis considering his slump as I said before. 3. Giannis dominated the paint better than anyone else in the entire NBA, way more than even 7’0 Jokic. 4. Despite having slightly less passing skill than Jokic, Giannis is still an excellent (above average) passer. 5. Giannis has been underrated since they won the chip, and the only reason they haven’t gotten to the semifinals or past is literally just because of the injuries to him or Khris or Dame or all of the above! If the Bucks had been healthy in 2022 they prolly would’ve gone to the finals and possibly have beat the Warriors (we can never know, although Steph went crazy that finale). So it is my opinion that given equal opportunity in terms of teammates and injuries, Giannis would go farther and be more impactful than Jokic. Same goes for Doncic.
That’s why I have that order. Sorry for the super long comment 😅
Let’s be real Luka got exposed in the nba finals bout nobody brings it up at All 💯 he was struggling to guard the players on the Celtics ‼️
Luka is Harden 2.0 heliocentric player with 0 defense who is always out of shape
I think it is interesting to differentiate which players are great floor raisers vs. great ceiling raisers.
Prime Russell Westbrook could take a bad team and make it decent or even good, but he wasn't ideal for making a good team great. KD however, would have a hard time taking a bad team to the playoffs but was amazing at making a good team great.
Luka, Jokic, Shai in my opinion are great floor raisers vs. Curry, Durant and AD who are great Ceiling raisers as they work "within the flow" of an offense
Luka could be 2018 lebron if he wasnt fat
So we’ve come to the conclusion that Ant is the best American player in the world now!
I’m glad they let the old dudes determine the outcome of this last Olympics, because from here on out it’s Ants team.
Mailbag Question:
First off, I coined the phrase “turtling” during the WCF in regards to how Luka gets guys on his back when coming out of a screen. It’s so annoying but so damn lethal.
With the incredible talent around the league right now would you say that in order to win a championship it is a prerequisite to have at least one top 10 player on your team?
The last 10+ champions have all had a top 10 player at the time. Most had a top 5 or 3 player.
Tatum
Jokic
Curry
Giannis
Lebron
Kawhi
Curry
Curry
Lebron
Curry
Kawhi/Duncan
Lebron
Lebron
It seems like it’s definitely a prerequisite even with guys like Curry and Lebron past their prime. Thoughts?
Screw the Lakers and Celtics in 5 forever.
Luka looked bad in the end of the games in POs because he was playing 41MPG on bad knees, and beat up body. And the MPG during the season wasn’t much better.
But I agree with you. If he took care of his body better and replaced fat with muscle he would be unstoppable.. so there still is much more potential in him.
As a mavs fan, I LOVED YOUR COMMENTARY ON LUKA AND HIM NOT BEING IN GREAT SHAPE, this is the only thing his lazy ass needs to fix, it is so frustrating watching him dominate every first half and gas out in the 2nd half….thank you for being so blatant with your commentary on his weight/shape….it is so frustrating being his fan knowing if he put in that Jordan/koby effort in getting in shape, he would dominate the league….hopefully he watches your show!…but I doubt it he is likely playing video games.
Giannis is 2 stop with luka
‘and now you’re fucked’ 😂😂😂 just an observation from someone that’s watched all your videos for years. I idolise how you swear/ curse like you use it so occasionally that it carries weight however you’re too kind of a person to which it always comes across very humorous.
don’t disagree majorly but here’s why I would put luka over jokic.
imo luka is a better offensive player by a small margin, whilst he doesn’t have the unrelenting and unbelievably efficient close the the rim game that jokic has. he’s obviously a way more efficient and daring jump shooter, I believe he’s a slightly better passer especially in pnr I think jokic is given way more credit for his passing ability due to his continuity with the same roster year in year out (pls don’t take that the wrong way jokic is still inarguably the best big man passer of all time) I also just believe luka can do more with an offense, yes he’s very heliocentric but when he has the ball good things tend to happen. Defensively is where I think we’re gonna disagree. I assume you’re going to point out jokic’s very effective active hands and his dominant rebounding. However whilst luka is a worst defensive player than jokic, jokic is a centre. I am a massive believer in rim protection and jokic quite frankly can’t protect the rim. He also struggles just as much in space as luka does if not more so. On luka’s end it simply comes down to him playing a less valuable position. You said in your last video how rare it is to be able to play a 5-man lineup that can all defend, shoot and pass. Boston was simply just the worst matchup for luka possible. Every other team in the league has a weak offensive player luka can do a reasonable job on. He’s also just as dominant a rebounder for his position as jokic and if jokic played the Celtics I think he would get equally exposed if not even more so. I don’t disagree by much but to sum it up I think luka is slightly better offensively, whilst being lucky enough he plays a less important defensive role than jokic which imo makes him an easier player to build around. Seriously can’t thank you enough your content is unbelievable I’ve watched every video for a couple years now and you’ve made me a 1000x smarter fan and player. I hope one day you end up in the league in an important role because you’re truely one of the most intelligent minds in basketball.
Can you please make a power rank list of the teams and how the teams are positioned hesding into 24/25 season?
I cant believe what I'm seeing in these comments. In the last 3 seasons Luka has led the Mavs in every offensive category (scoring, assists, rebounds), had team success (WCF 2022, Finals 2024) and sent home Booker, SGA, Anthony Edwards, Kawhi, Harden, PG, Mitchell in the playoffs. You want this man to play All-NBA defense as well?!
Ok so explain then if luka was that bad on defence against boston and boston was no1 offence in NBA WHY did their offensive rating drop significantly against dallas compared to regular season and playoffs? Seem like Boston did not really take tht much advantage of anyone in dallas team but all this defensive break down was due to a tactic employed by Dallas on defensive end. Also his knee and ankle were hurt how much do you think this effects your side movement and speed.. like you are criticising him in a state where he was not in his best not because of his shape but because of injuries that were a result of Ludort and westbrook kicking and hiting him on each play …talk about the illegal defence that was allowed by NBa refs on luka 😤 F Off
Mailbag: I respect your thoughts on Luka over Giannis, but I respectfully disagree. Your offensive playmaking point is accurate, and Luka does perform at high level in the post season, but similarly to younger Lebron the jump shot and free throw shooting comes and goes, and has had two post seasons where his free throws were under 70%. Do you still think that Luka’s super power is still more valuable than Giannis’s when you don’t always know what version of it you’re getting? At least with Giannis’s there’s a clear expectation and understanding of what is and isn’t, where as times of unpredictably is difficult with your primary ball handler who plays a heliocentric style. Keep up the great work, Jason!
Love the fact that guys are not happy with luka 2 because of his defense but have Joker nr 1😂. Also didn't know Giannis was just an average playmaker.
Yeah – 2020-2021 Luka he looked quick and nimble. Looked better and what’s the point in trying to blow by someone nimble. Circuit training, dancing, lateral movement training, something like that. Yeah 100% agree – unfulfilled potential is upsetting…. Everyone feels remorse at that
Mailbag Question: Jason, thanks for your commentary as always. Your defense of Giannis at #3 is confusing to me. Throughout this series you have strongly emphasized half-court shot making as a major factor in your rankings and differentiations between players.
Regardless of how anyone feels about Giannis being ranked as the #3 player in a regular list, your arguments for him at #3 in this specific list felt lackluster.
I respect your basketball knowledge a ton. I would love to hear a stronger case for why Giannis’ half-court limitations are not reason enough to drop him lower in this specific list.
Luka's defense is so poor it will keep him from winning a championship. He's lazy; he doesn't even make effort. He's slow, and out of shape. And whiny. And limps when he's behind. Luka in the top ten is ridiculous.
This is what we get when Jason's criteria are about facing weak regular season opponents. Luka's offense is containable by strong playoff defense.
Hey Jason! Love the show and I tend to agree on almost everything. I’m curious as to where you would’ve put Devin Booker and Chris Paul on this list after the 2021 Finals run. Booker led his team to being 2 games away from a championship, with incredibly high level offence. Chris Paul was a peader aswell and had some unbelievable games. Would Booker be higher than he was on this list? And would CP crack the top 25?
Tatum vs Ant
Tatum was better than Ant in regards to:
DARKO
FG%
eFG%
TS%
FT%
3pt%
PER
PPG with lower USG = more efficient
Asst/TO ratio
Rebounds
OWS
DWS
WS
ORtg
DRtg
NetRtg
O-BPM
D-BPM
BPM
VORP
RPM
Ant's first 8 playoff games were spectacular. The NBA Media jumped the sharp by declaring Ant the "Next MJ"
Ant's last 8 games when the MAVs smacked them around weren't nearly as good.
Jason, I love the program. I am a basketball coach and skills trainer and I frequently take things I learn from your show and teach them to my players. Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
I think you have done a great job with this list, but I do have one major disagreement. I am a biased Atlanta Hawks fan and I do feel that Trae Young should be on this list.
He has been blamed for a lack of team success, even though he has never played with a great #2 and the roster is full of one way players. The hawks have ranked well in team offense despite the fact that he is carrying a roster full of mediocre offensive players and playing with below average spacing.
The last time he had good spacing he went to the conference finals in 2021. This is when Bogie was playing well, Kevin Huerter was still on the team, John Collins was shooting well, and Capela was a legit vertical spacing threat. All of those players have either been traded, went cold, or slowed down due to age or injuries.
Of course he is a bad defender and has limitations when it comes to finishing around the rim due to his size. But I believe that could be worked around.
You say that you value the offensive engine archetype and Trae is elite at playing that role. He is certainly in the discussion for best passer in the league and also scores 25 a game in his sleep.
The purpose of this list to draft players who you could build a team around easily. I believe that he generates so much offense that you could surround him with solid 3 & D guys and still be pretty good.
I could see an ideal lineup around Trae looking something like this. Pairing him with a strong defensive guard (an Alex Caruso type), and tall wing that can defend and make shots over the top of the defense (Mikal Bridges or a young Kris Middleton). A versatile athletic play finishing power forward (Jalen Johnson works), and a center who can protect the rim and provide vertical spacing (A younger Clint Capela).
To contend for a championship he would need an ideal co-star. Perhaps a strong rim pressuring guard who can also defend (like prime Jimmy Butler) or a tall athletic two way wing (like prime Paul George)
Do you believe that a GM could realistically build a contending team around Trae? Or does he need to be the Robin with the right co-star to contend for a ring.
Love the show, and keep up the good work!
Acting like Luka can’t function without a 4:1 is factually dishonest like the Mavs didn’t make a living in 22’ with maxi kleber at center and going 5 out.
Giannis is so frustrating to watch, because as great as he is he's still underachieving. Literally all he needs is a decent jump hook and a counter move to that and he'd be far and away the best player in the league.
I’d say a solid A- Playmaker not just above average
@_JasonLT yo here’s a cool basketball thought exercise I’d like to get your thoughts on. What ultra specific players do you think are the best “study” methods star players should try to imitate to take their game up this year? For examble: I think Jaylen Brown would benefit a lot from learning some tools off that post-prime Heatles Wade. He made it a task this year to really get down low and use his athleticism and physicality to take him up a level, I think that version of Wade is like the perfect mentor for him. Or like Fox trying to imitate that prime version of McCollum. Just evolving and refining his already growing arsenal of off the dribble shots, I think that version of McCollum would be great to study from. Love the show man, it’s awesome learning and enjoying basketball from you man keep up the great stuff!
What a world we live in where Luka LOSES in the finals with the Game 3 loss on him and his crying to the refs AND he gets outplayed by Tatum in the clinching game in Boston (JT: 31-8-11, Luka 28-12-5) and is still crowned top 3 in the league. Was Luka not the reason the Celtics were able to drive and kick on every play? Did he not have historically terrible blow-by rates in these games? Did the Jays not pick on him, drive past him like a traffic cone, make his help collapse, and kick to three point shooters?? Was that not the reason the Celtics won ACCORDING TO YOU? I'm sorry, but does that not matter? Are we trying to look cool and score whirling, spinning, fantastical shots? Or are trying to win games? Every time a Celtic was matched on Luka, I smiled, because it meant we were going to score. I get it, in a vacuum Luka is amazing. Never seen anything like him. But he was the point of entry for the Celtics in the biggest 5 games of his life. And before you give him the Lebron "help" excuse, just remember, YOU ALL PICKED THE MAVS TO WIN…they got a Gentlemen's Sweep…Not even close…and Porzingis only played 1 game in limited minutes…
How to tell someone doesn’t know ball. They complain about Lukas defense
Is Zion not the most similar player to Giannas? Curious why you went with LeBron for comparison over Zion.
I have yet to watch the Nikola video as to why he is the best player in your opinion but what has otherred me since watching this video is what sounded like a hypocrisy in your analysis. There seemed to be disagreement with your Edwards place… and in your analysis of Luka you went the route of his conditioning not being where it needed to be… you drove home your point of his lack of conditioning with pointing out his clutch stats… which the Mavs were excellent in the playoffs and especially the WCF but you also pointed out him being 2-8 and not getting his legs into his shot…. this is an extremely poor look for Luka and feeds into the narrative BUT when it came to Anthony Edwards in the 4th quarter of games 1 and 2 you said he was passive… while it isn't flattering for someone to be passive that is ignoring he was gassed in those two games. He had to leave for oxygen but instead of Edwards needing to work on his conditiioning it was chalked up to him being passive. while I do think you have biases (like everyone else), it is not my belief you wish to push lazy narratives. Your analysis is thorough but I do think information can be skwered in order to make a point. Every fan feels like their guys are persecuted. That bothered me and I just hope it is addressed in a later video because your work is thorough
Thing with Giannis he a game plan breaker. Team gone get open shots literally with his presence alone
There are some innacuracies on your GA analysis. You challenged his avaialbility in the regular season and said he played less than 65 games over the last 5 years. But there is a major ommision on your part as the 2 of the last 5 seasons were not full seasons. Giannis only played once less than 70 games in a full season. Even last year where he got injured he played more than 70 games. The 19-20 was covid and the season had 68 games in total. The next season only had 72 games in total. So getting the average of the last 5 and saying GA has availability issues in the regular season is not correct. Itbis exactly the opposite GA is always available in the regilar season and he in general plays more than 70 games. Also although he skips some back to back etx he never skips a big game.
The other you were not correct is on the injury reference. Firstly yes he has a knee issue but that is something he had his whole career and he is managing that. He never missed a game due to that and he never missed a post season game due to that. The last 2 seasons he was injured in the post season for completely unrelated health issues. With the miami searirs (2 years ago) he got i jured during the game when they fouled him hard and fell on his collar bone (nothing to do with his legs or knees) and the last year it was a hamstring issue ( nothing to do with his knees). Last years injury is for over taxing himself as the bucks were in a relatively bad spot and he played in a lot of back to back and with heavy minutes.
Luka caught alot of hate this post season because he made it as far as he did WITH AN ACHILLES INJURY